[Sur Tutorial] Hitbox from 3DSMAX to Freelancer

[Mirkha]

@StarTrader:

CzW, Mirkha…

As far as options go, select “Back To Front”, collision must be “Shrink Wrapped” and scale down set to “1”, mass on 100.

Once all good, click on OK; you will have a file bsl_S06.sur.

Doing this will bridge the gaps and hollows in the sur, as part of the shrink-wrap export. So all sur parts will be made convex automatically by the exporter.
So when you make a shape with a dock cut into it for example, I don’t understand how a ship will pass through as yet. I haven’t made one to check. Any comments please?

i don’t know exactly how the shrink-wrap works but i have made two dock with the bolean tool.
one example :

and the two work perfectly.

@StarTrader:

Also…

When we change the name of the root part in the cmp, we are replacing the ship root with the 1st sphere. Why exactly?
This will leave us one group short, remember we only made x-1 spheres, because the first is the root - i.e. the ship.
Could it be that this method is working precisely because we have removed the root group?

Thanks.

in fact with the v3 exporter, to make your cmp functional you don’t have to rename the first group.
but you have noticed that i don’t rename the cmp groups in milkshape before the export.
so i have one group called : Group1.
and you know each part of a cmp must have a unique name.
if not freelancer doesn’t considere them and doesn’t show the object ingame

and no, the first group is not a sphere. the firt group is the entire ship.
here you see that the first sphere is not made in milkshape

and here you see that the first group is the reunification of all cmp groups.

i hope that’s help you

[StarTrader]

Right, got it.

Well since you are naming the root group I think it’s not changing anything, is it? As long as the name of the 1st root group (in this case it should still be the ship or station groups) is in the root’s file name then all will be ok.

Can you post up the cmp’s UTF tree so we can see the group names please? That will clarify it.

And a screenshot of the model and its sur in HardCMP will show that it is convex or not, if you can try to angle it so we can see the sur wireframe.

Thanks.

All the best.

[Mirkha]

@StarTrader:

Right, got it.

Well since you are naming the root group I think it’s not changing anything, is it? As long as the name of the 1st root group (in this case it should still be the ship or station groups) is in the root’s file name then all will be ok.

Can you post up the cmp’s UTF tree so we can see the group names please? That will clarify it.

And a screenshot of the model and its sur in HardCMP will show that it is convex or not, if you can try to angle it so we can see the sur wireframe.

Thanks.

All the best.

by default when you import the cmp/3ds in milkshape, just before add the spheres, milkshape juste give Group1, Group2, Group3 ect … for the ship’s groups names.
so when you export, the exporter give to your cmp the “Group1_lod1.3db” name for the first group.
just like this.

not a problem, the cmp/sur are functional
but when you make another ships/bases, milkshape will do the same thing and give your cmp the “Group1_lod1.3db” name for the first group.
and when you put the two ships/bases in game you cannot see them because for freelancer two object have the same group name.

and this model have a docking part.
the root is in one part and it present a concavity

[StarTrader]

Thanks Mirkha. Yep the group rename is clear.

Well it looks like the cavity in the sur is most definitely there!

It’s very strange the exporter would do that in Shrink-Wrap, it’s supposed to bridge the vertices. Or did you export it with shield bubble and then strip off the shield bubble?

Unless it knows about Boolean?? The author of the exporter plugin has not been around to ask him, it would have clarified so many sur questions.

[Mirkha]

no bubble
never !! bubbles is the dark side !!!
hum … sorry i don’t have take my pills ;D

most seriously, only Shrink-Wrap.
and as you see on the video the boolean tools cut the face and make some others faces not to leave an open mesh.
i don’t know how but i just see it in 3dsmax.

the question is not that if the author of the exporter is here, but is anyone else can make an exporter pack for 3DSMAX ?
because all the game was made with 3DSMAX … and obviously it is possible … just need a C++ programmer with some free time … and a lot of bravery ;D

[Buck Rogers]

Hi all, great tutorial, thx to everyone who participated.

I’m having a small problem

I’ve made a base, it’s a Star Trek Starbase

Not yet complete and haven’t started skinning yet.

It’s made up of multiple surs and groups. I used the tutorial and it works a treat except for a couple of issues that I’m hoping someone may be to able advise me on.

The first is the solar radius. The distance to the object appears as 0K even when I’m still 2k away. I’ve played around with the radius in sur splice and it does reduce this range but I have to make so small 50 that the object is no longer selectable unless you are on top of it. The model is about 4000 high and 2000 in diameter at it’s largest point but if I use these values the it says 0 when I’m at the other side of the system, well almost, slight exageration.

Another issus is the sur for the top half of the main dome. I did this in 2 halves, the bottom and the top. The bottom works fine and the top works from the outside, including the boolean holes, but from the inside it seems to be a bit hit and miss, sometimes it works and sometimes i can pass through it.

I can only imagine that it is due to the complexity of the shape having internal and external detection as well as the docking holes.I used the ghost bubbles for all the parts.

Finally the sun’s glare shines through the object and I noticed this was mentioned earlier but i only used Standard Primitives and not Splines.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated?

[Mirkha]

radius is managed in the lodrange of the object in the solararch.ini
and maybe you need to hack you freelancer.exe

for great objet in our mod (2600 meters) i use lodranger = 40000 at least

and for the sun/bolean.

i have made a lot of tests the last week
and when i said a lot of tests … it’s an euphemism …
even when I make the boxes only with milkshape it’s still the same. only the root part is not transparent to the sun …
it’s just a freelancer limitation.

no difference between splines and shapes for the sun : a good new and a bad one in the same time.
a good because you can do better sur and more easily with splines.
a bad one because we need to fix the problem
i have already a method.
the only problem is the flare.

I have not yet tested with the file stararch.ini and particulary this settings :

[Texture]
file = fx\sun.txm
tex_shape = sunglow
tex_shape = glow2
tex_shape = glow2_ring
tex_shape = ice_halo
tex_shape = lenscircle
tex_shape = lenscircle2
tex_shape = hexagon
tex_shape = lensglow1
tex_shape = LensGlowSpike
tex_shape = stripe_narrow
tex_shape = stripe_flare
tex_shape = suncircle

but i have find another way.
you can add a particular field to your system.

just add a noflare.ini in the data\solar\asteroids folder
in this ini you need that :

[Band]
render_parts = 6
shape = asteroid_belt_04
height = 5000
offset_dist = 3000
fade = 1.000000, 1.350000, 15, 17
texture_aspect = 1.000000
color_shift = 1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000
vert_increase = 2
ambient_intensity = 1.000000

[AsteroidBillboards]
count = 400
start_dist = 1000
fade_dist_percent = 0.350000
shape = mine_rock_tri
color_shift = 0.800000, 0.800000, 0.800000
ambient_intensity = 1.000000
size = 60, 120

and in your system ini file you must add this :

[Asteroids]
file = solar\asteroids\noflare.ini
zone = Zone_noflare

[Zone]
nickname = Zone_noflare
pos = 0, 0, 0
rotate = 0, 0, 0
shape = ELLIPSOID
size = 1000000, 1000000, 1000000
property_flags = 0
visit = 0
damage = 0
spacedust = 0
spacedust_maxparticles = 0
interference = 0.000000
sort = 20

and that fix the sun who pass throught the model …
i give you news as soon as possible for the stararch.ini ( i hope that’s work this way because it will be easier )

and for the boolean ^^
the method work good and i have made other tests
but you’re right, from outside you hit the box and from the inside not.
so 2 solutions :

add simple surface around the hole
or use the spline to draw the contours of the object, including hole
i will make a video today to show you

[Buck Rogers]

Thx Mirkha

This maybe bad practice but I use
Lod = 0, 999999 for all models

So the only downside to using Splines instead of Standard Primitives is the solar flare, but the surface hit detection works better.

[StarTrader]

Well, here are my findings…

I made a large sphere 200m diameter with a large boolean box removed from the front to the centre of the sphere, making a wide entrance dock in the sphere.

As usual the sphere was not visible in-game until I fitted an HpMount hardpoint.

It also disappeared from view when the centre is off-screen, until I made a sur for it. Resizing the model cmp itself and saving it with the new bounding box (radius) in FL Model Tool did not stop this.

The freshly-exported untouched sur crashed FL. Still crashed after using FL Model Tool to resize it x 1 as scenery then as ship/station again. Tried several times and ways, still same. This sur also has bridged the dock entrance with faces, which we knew the exporter does…

(How can I attach an image guys?)

Incidentally, FL Model Tool adds the HpMount shield bubble (0xF00FB9DE - “Unknown_Mesh_f00fb9de”) to the sur too when you make the type = ship/station! I found that out a couple of days ago.

Surprise though - after passing a freshly-exported sur (not the resized one) through sur-splicer, the bridging across the entrance is removed, and the dock roof, floor, backwall and sidewalls are properly shaped into the sphere!!

And this sur did not crash FL, I was able to launch and approach the sphere.

But - it’s not working as you described it in your tutorial, guys! You didn’t test extensively enough - tsk! tsk!

From outside the sphere my ship bounced off everywhere, but passed through when approaching the dock from the front and below the dock floor level. When inside, it bounces off the dock roof and back wall once but still passes through them. There is no collision with the floor or side walls.

I made an entry for the sphere in concave.ini - no change. I set the sphere as type = MISSION_SATELLITE, PLANET, FIGHTER in solararch.ini - same performance from the sur.

My guess is it is something to do with normals, Lancer mentioned that he spotted that the collision detection method uses normals. So somehow the sur exporter/sur-splicer is almost there but not putting all the info that’s needed into the sur file.

Sun flare is shining through the sphere.

I have some screenshots but can’t see a way to attach them, can anyone help how?

Anyhow, for a working sur for this type of problem we still need to make the sur in 5 parts - two part-spheres for the internal sidewalls, two pieces of sphere for the floor & ceiling, and one more for the backwall, all fitted together with sur-splicer.

My huge Romulan D’Deridex and many other large hollow-ship surs are made in this way and all of them work like a charm after sorting out some concavities here and there.

And the sun does not flare through the models. This may also be to do with normals.

It seems to be nearly there, it’s likely that the sur-splicer reverses some faces when it constructs the internal sur parts. If only we had someone to make us a new sur exporter plugin! (Hint! Hint!)

If someone can tell me how I’ll edit my post and attach some screenshots.

[Buck Rogers]

The screenies need to be hosted somewhere, i.e. photobucket or image shack and then a link to them is provided for posting them on a forum

I just put mine onto our web server and link them in "

[StarTrader]

Ah, thanks for the image info.

Your mat problem must be a name wrong somewhere - basic stuff to check is:-

• mat filename correctly defined in solararch.ini for bases (or shiparch.ini for ships)?
• internal materials names correct?
• materials correctly assigned to model parts?
• imported in DDS or TGA format only in mat file?
• Node name (UTF Edit of mat file) should be MIP0 for TGA and MIPS for DDS? (When you click on a MIPS node you will see the contents in the data window will start with “DDS”).
• export the materials from the mat file nodes using UTF Edit and check they are as you expect.

Hope one of these solves it.

[FriendlyFire]

Texture is flipped upside down if it is a TGA, and not so if it is a DDS?

[Mindhunter]

@FriendlyFire:

Texture is flipped upside down if it is a TGA, and not so if it is a DDS?

Exactly.

[Mirkha]

@Buck:

Thx Mirkha

This maybe bad practice but I use
Lod = 0, 999999 for all models

your freelancer.exe is hacked ? because if not the limit is about 10000 i think …

@Buck:

So the only downside to using Splines instead of Standard Primitives is the solar flare, but the surface hit detection works better.

no, with the splines and with the shapes, we have the same bug.
fixed by add a particular field to you entier system or just near the base.
but keep in mind that the problem is for bases AND ships, so if you don’t fix for the entire system, you will have the bug for ships. in fact for small it’s not a problem but for big one …
as strartrader has said i think it’s a limitation of the sursplicer…

here a video for the use of a spline tool, and a solution for the boolean inside problem ;D

http://files.filefront.com/3dsmax+spline1avi/;12470336;/fileinfo.html

especially for the sphere shapes i thinlk that the splines are useful
keep in mind that spline tool mean also circle, ellipse, arc, ect …

@StarTrader:

Well, here are my findings…
I made a large sphere 200m diameter with a large boolean box removed from the front to the centre of the sphere, making a wide entrance dock in the sphere.
As usual the sphere was not visible in-game until I fitted an HpMount hardpoint.
It also disappeared from view when the centre is off-screen, until I made a sur for it. Resizing the model cmp itself and saving it with the new bounding box (radius) in FL Model Tool did not stop this.

you use the cmp exporter V3 ? with this I have not seen this problem, but with the v2.1 yes

@StarTrader:

The freshly-exported untouched sur crashed FL. Still crashed after using FL Model Tool to resize it x 1 as scenery then as ship/station again. Tried several times and ways, still same. This sur also has bridged the dock entrance with faces, which we knew the exporter does…
Incidentally, FL Model Tool adds the HpMount shield bubble (0xF00FB9DE - “Unknown_Mesh_f00fb9de”) to the sur too when you make the type = ship/station! I found that out a couple of days ago.
Surprise though - after passing a freshly-exported sur (not the resized one) through sur-splicer, the bridging across the entrance is removed, and the dock roof, floor, backwall and sidewalls are properly shaped into the sphere!!
And this sur did not crash FL, I was able to launch and approach the sphere.

yes … the only way is to use the sursplicer

@StarTrader:

But - it’s not working as you described it in your tutorial, guys! You didn’t test extensively enough - tsk! tsk!

i don’t see how … i don’t have write to user flmodeltools.exe for other thing to find the radius of your object.
if i understand well your first sur exported have a bridged entrance ? so you not use the sursplicer and obviously you sur crash the game. just normal …

@StarTrader:

From outside the sphere my ship bounced off everywhere, but passed through when approaching the dock from the front and below the dock floor level. When inside, it bounces off the dock roof and back wall once but still passes through them. There is no collision with the floor or side walls.

use splines and you can do a hitbox who work at the inside too
but i have to said that for me it’s a little problem for a docking part … when you go inside a dock … you dock …
obviously you will find players who love pass througt the dock just for fun ^^ … well you have the choice :).

@StarTrader:

I made an entry for the sphere in concave.ini - no change. I set the sphere as type = MISSION_SATELLITE, PLANET, FIGHTER in solararch.ini - same performance from the sur.

no change at all you’re right

@StarTrader:

My guess is it is something to do with normals, Lancer mentioned that he spotted that the collision detection method uses normals. So somehow the sur exporter/sur-splicer is almost there but not putting all the info that’s needed into the sur file.

i think too. i have ask for dev (he wrote the sur-splicer) but he doesn’t know why did this …

@StarTrader:

Sun flare is shining through the sphere.

just fix it with the shield for the system or near your base
it’s not a choice. if you want use this technique you need the sursplicer and if you use the surplicer you need to fix the sun …

@StarTrader:

It seems to be nearly there, it’s likely that the sur-splicer reverses some faces when it constructs the internal sur parts. If only we had someone to make us a new sur exporter plugin! (Hint! Hint!)

^^
if you find somenone, just ask him to make exporter for 3DSMAX too ^^

hope this help

[Mirkha]

sorry for the double answer …

more testing and I think yes, the problem seems to be with the sur splicer
if I work with lines or shapes, it’s the same, you pass througt from the inside …
i don’t understand how with the splines, it’s possible … You have saw the video … it’s juste an object … no hole inside in fact
o__________O

at this point, i don’t know more but give you news as soon i find

[Buck Rogers]

Thx for the video Mirkha

I have found another small issue; it’s with using the ghost sheres to allocate the surs. After building up my model, following the tutorial to the letter, I found that by grouping all the main model groups together I couldn’t allocate invidual mat files to the sub groups. FL just seemed to show the first mat file on all the sections.

I ended up breaking the model down into 9 single group cmps and building the model together in space. Apart from the somewhat random collision detection on the part with the docking holes, it now works as i hoped.

I haven’t tried splines yet, still downloading the vid, I’m in Cambodia at the moment and only have 256kb broadband. It’s like living in the stone age

[Mirkha]

it’s very easy to cut your model with 3dsmax and make several cmp
and your sur will be also more accurate

i have test tonight to put the no flare field around my base and it works perfectly
in fact you just need to add the code to you system ini file
you can no put the noflare.ini to the asteroid folder and that works fine

for one time a freelancer bug help us xD \o/

for the mat issue i have no answer sorry
i use only one mat file by cmp.

but in the tutorial, you have to make x-1 spheres and export with the number of cmp part in the first undergoup in the exporter settings
you can do different
just add x-y (y = the number of cmp group) spheres
and name starting with the last sphere. the last must have the last sur name
then export with the v3 and put the total number of groups and 1 in each undergroup

that works fine too

[Buck Rogers]

I Finally got my model working 95%, enough to use it although i would love to get the other 5% to make it perfect.

Here’s what i did
My model comprises of 9 parts so instead of building a single cmp (due to the mat file issue I made 9 indivdual cmps, one for each section

I built each section in 3DS Max and made sure that the centre of the model was at 0 on all 3 planes when imported into MilkShape (3DS use the base line for the X plane)

I then imported it into MilkShape with autoSmooth checked and made sure it was centred exactly. I export the cmp uising v2 and then resized it using FLModel Tool making a note of the radius.

Next I built an exact copy of the model in 3DS (I never used clone) to use as the the sur but using as few faces and vertices as possible, i.e. my model was a cone with 48 sections and 8 slices but the sur is 24 sections and 1 slice.

I made sur it was centred by dividing the height and exported it without converting to editable mesh. I found that this doesn’t matter for surs either way.

I then imported the sur into MilkShape with autoSmooth unchecked and all I had to do was rotate it. I didn’t adjust it in any other way so as not to screw it up.

I then exported the sur using v1 exporter (the only one that seems to work at the moment) and used sur_splice to mate it to the cmp using the radius I got earlier from FLModel Tool.

I then assembled the model in space by adjusting the location to match them up and made 8 of the sections as children to the main section so that it was selectable in space as a single unit

This method has worked perfectly for each section except the one with the boolean holes in, shame but it’s still early.

Using this method I can have seperate mat files for each section plus the radius when approaching is more accurate and the solar flare only shines through when you are withing that radius

As for the boxed holes for docking they work when you initially enter as i bounced off the roof section but then I tried the floor and passed straight through. Once I had passed through the floor i found that I could now pass through the roof that initially bounced me off. Weird

Has anyone been able to make their own animated docking doors?

[StarTrader]

Just a brief pointer or two…

The reason I don’t like to add dummy parts (spheres or dev’s boxes) is that:-

1. I break up my models into sensible names anyway, and use these names with _lod1 on the end.

2. when the ships are destroyed the separate groups break away and spin in space ! Nice!

3. When you group ship parts that use different textures they are combined to use only one texture - messes things up.

4. I don’t want lots of surplus bits if I can avoid it. Duhhh - that’s just me, don’t worry, not criticising.

Hey - I’m very pleased so many of you are now looking into these problems too, maybe a proggie who wrote one of these plugins can help us out to get a better solution? Dev?

Bejaymac?

Where are you?

If you tell us everything you know about the structure of different sur types it may save us a long long time, bud. I might even send you a bottle of Glayva!

(Of course once you’ve done that we’ll have to bump you off!!)

[StarTrader]

Any updates or new experiences anyone?