CMP to SUR Conversion Tests

yes, even me have to agree here. although ST maybe really does tryings many modelers would not have in their models and although such problems most likely are irrelevant for the functionality ingame, the issues he found are partially important enough to be fixed and are weird enough to be a problem. the tool wouldn’t deserve its name as automatic sur creation tool, if it decides on its own what to do and what not. its not a shame to ask for help, most of us started like this and evolved just like this, only a few really have found something new that was unknown before. it is much more a shame of honor to claim for something that does not happen in end effect. that damages the own name and does not help anyone. taking on work is always sensible, regardless whether on a hobby or private project, like FL or in RL or at work, when you know, that you either can do it or can learn it and can do it than and only if you are ready to spend as much time as needed to bring it to an end. if not, just say that you cannot or do not want to, noone would bother, maybe even someone else comes up and sais he is gonna do it.

You guys bashing Bullwinkle do understand that he was the only one that even would have a look on the code of the sur-builder, right?

AFAIK nobody else volunteered in any way. I’d guess that if anybody stepped forward to fix this, BW would be glad to hand the project over.

maybe he was just the first…
anyway, its full in his possibilities to ask for support. were no egoistic trolls here, whoever can help him with the code stuff likely would. maybe not taking on the project but helping? why not? ofc not everyone can but unlikely anyone who can would denie, would they?

@ w0dk4

It’s all very well moaning about why there’s moaning, so why take the project on in the first place then? If there’s no movement forward then hand it to someone who can do something with it. Trick is finding someone i agree, but i think for those that can, helping out would be a plus as well, instead of these insane arguments

I can give no credit to anyone who takes on responsibility for a project and then kills it.

He deserves this final bashing from me ten times over.

He has had offers of help from others, and more now.

He has had my hours of isolating the problem to where it can be so easily repeated so it can be found and the tool fixed.

He just says its a feature and he will document it.

He insulted me several times by accusing me of merely trying to break his lovely tool.

So I made other methods to isolate it for him even more simply, that even a child can understand and reproduce, and he again accuses me of merely trying to fabricate a non-existent problem.

…
Remember, the above condition is a rare occurrence among our test models (except when ST tries to make it happen). And, even when it does occur, half of those occurrences are not very important to gameplay.

He does not know that many of the ships and bases this is needed for are HUGE. And a missing large box will be quite a hole!

Lost the plot? HE NEVER HAD IT!

He STILL INSISTS I AM TRYING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN!

• OF COURSE I AM YOU STUPID IMBECILE PLONKER, I AM SHOWING YOU THE PROBLEM THAT YOU ARE DENYING!

He has no idea of any programming since he does not understand isolation and diagnosis.

It is not a matter of tesselating a shape, the tool still misses it and I have had to remake sections time and time again.

He should not be here. AND ESPECIALLY NOT IN THIS PROJECT THAT WE HAVE WAITED FOR FOR SO LONG!

All he wants to do is strut around on the forums pretending he has done something useful - nothing I can see at this stage.

Unless you can call the destruction of this project as an achievement?

It is probably a ten minute fix now we know what to look for.

And adding a shield bubble what - another hour’s work at most since the model boundaries are already calculated when building the overall sur shape.

BUT HE CAN’T BE BOTHERED!

I have no more time for this foolish dickhead.

Please calm down now, I don’t want this thread to devolve into a flamefest. ST, as you said, maybe you should take a small break from this topic. This is a strong suggestion.

@w0dk4: For a good while, I thought Schmack was working on something? Maybe he’d want to pick up the SUR builder then? That’s at least a possibility right there.

@BW: Despite ST’s less-than-correct rebuttal of your attitude, his overall point is true. If you cannot do it, just say it. There will be a lot less frustration that way than to just beat about the bush over and over. And if you CAN do it, well do it. If you don’t WANT to do it, see above.

Yes FF I agree, I am tired, bewildered and frustrated and going for a break.

The outstanding issues are simple ones and the .ms3d files demonstrating the problem are in the posts above, and several of the guys here also understand the problem so it should be easy to follow.

If it were not so close and already so good I would have given it up already.

I am sure Lancer could fix it in a jiffy if he would not mind looking at it with the problem files.

IF there is NOONE Else out there that has more programing than myself I Volentary to try and take a wack at this program. Heck i UNDERSTAND what Startrader is saying and I agree this needs to be looked into and FIXED! And if the person that is working one it does not know HOW to fix the problem then find out how a fix can be made. Not just sit around and make up reasons it can not be fixed or claim it to be a feature like Mircoslope er I mean Mircosoft.

I would only need to know what peograming laugange this is in so that I can go online and touch up on the codes and format for it. As with gather the tools needed to work on it.

That is If Lancer does not mind helping me get it started and working on it.

Also,

That huge post from StarTrader on the last page. . .
I AGREE WITH HIM !

Lonestar out. . . . . .

w0dk4 wrote:
AFAIK nobody else volunteered in any way. I’d guess that if anybody stepped forward to fix this, BW would be glad to hand the project over.

Exactly right. I responded to Lancer Solurus only when I did not see a response from anybody else for a very long time. I did not want to see his code lost to the community forever (like FLMM).

I already created a Forge project that will eventually hold all of Lancer’s tools, so that his legacy can live on at the-Starport. It is a part-time job for both of us (a few hours per week, at best), and I am certainly not holding up anyone else who wants to help.

I do not understand the emotional outbursts (although I now understand why nobody else volunteered).

I thought that I asked simple questions:

1. Is it difficult to add a couple of extra polys when a shape does not build correctly? Cursor made it sound as simple as pushing the “Tessellate” button, but I have no first-hand knowledge. Even if the polys must be drawn manually, how difficult is it to split two faces into four?

2. Is there a consistent number of vertices required for reliable building?

Would anyone like a peanut? Anyone?

I can haz cheezeburgr?

My knowledge in this area is… well i dont have any. All I know is that a lot of you put in a lot of work to provide people with these tools.

Whilst i agree with ST, purely on the basis that its frustrating when you point out a problem and nothing is done.

However i appreciate that BW is trying, but if others offer help, constructive critisim, take it and do something with it, cause in the end its about benefiting the community.

Thanks to all that really give it their all and to those that try to give us the tools we require to create our dreams.

FF for the win.

I luv cheezeburgr…

hm, BW, problem is not the creation of additional polys. problem is, that noone knows where to add them and what to expect, as the tool does almost randomly decide which parts it saves. and making your model time after time, exporting and surring again and again is not worth it, if you can use even the model tool for a proper sur. that’s what the modellers mean, the tool is great but what we mean here is definately not a feature but a bug and if it is possible to fix it, than it has to be fixed. yes, maybe many of us do not know how to help you and are only criticising your work, but we don’t hide, we can’t help (partially), we criticise only your refusage, not more. we are thankful for that you took it on but some of start being frustrated, as we do almost not see any results, almost no improvements. yes, not everyone is kind once he is frustrated, don’t you take it personally. when you took it we had expectations and not everyone likes his expectations to go down, you know…

Gisteron wrote:

1. problem is not the creation of additional polys. problem is, that noone knows where to add them

2. what we mean here is definately not a feature but a bug

3. we criticise only your refusage

4. we do almost not see any results, almost no improvements.

5. don’t you take it personally

Thank you for posting a thoughtful message that I can respond to, Gisteron.

1. We have discussed this many times. Shapes without enough vertices sometimes fail. Therefore, if a CMP part fails, and it has very few vertices, then create more vertices (avoid pinpoint 5-vertex and knife-edge 6-vertex shapes; split faces if necessary; more than 8 vertices may be required). OK?

Here is the process:

a) Create model.
b) Build SUR.
c) Check SUR.
d) If a part does not build correctly, then check for enough vertices. If the part has very few vertices, then add more vertices and re-build.

Most models only need a-c.

2. It is not a bug. No amount of flaming or ranting or intentionally insufficient test cases will make it a bug.

As Lancer and I have explained several times, it is the way that the convex hull generation part of the Builder works, along with its associated limits.

We do not know the exact limits yet, because nobody seems interested in answering my questions.

3. I refuse nothing. I have done (or am in the process of doing) everything in my power to preserve Lancer’s code for the future; for the benefit of the entire community.

4. When I got the SUR Builder it did not work at all on the majority of models. I fixed several real bugs before releasing it. All that is left to do is some documentation and further cleanup of the user interface.

I have no plans to add new features, or to change the way that current features work. The tool seems brilliant as it is now. If somebody else wants to work on it, then it will be on the Forge. I have already invited a couple of other developers. So far, nobody has been interested.

5. I do not take it personally. I ignore the emotional noise and work with the facts.

Now for one last time…

It is not a case of dividing a shape into more vertices, this has not worked - see below.

Random failures on exactly the same shape are not acceptable, especially with 8-vertex boxes!

They MUST be generated, EVERY time.

They are used in models everywhere.

Dividing the box into 2 did not work for me either, and it now has 12 vertices!

The only way it worked is by making it as I have already described, as a 2-stack 4-slice cylinder!

It has more vertices - 14!!

A thick triangle has 6 vertices. I would prefer that it should be generated, but there may not be sufficient reason.

I have not checked but I think this shape will always be convex, so maybe it can just be duplicated as a sur shape directly?

But if not or if it will be too complex, then let’s set the minimum at 8 vertices. Why not?

I don’t think anybody will have a problem if a shape is skipped deliberately when its vertex count is less than 8, but we will need a message saying cmp group xxxx skipped, less than 8 vertices so the modeller knows the sur is incomplete without losing time inspecting it carefully, and so can go directly to the shape and fix it.

Bejaymac affirms that knife-edge surs do not work correctly in-game, so in fact this could be a good thing if some are removed at generation.

We already proved beyond all disbelief that open shapes (such as mid-wing sections) unwelded shapes and unconnected shapes do not cause problems in sur builder, good sur parts are still generated.

This is great, and I would happily call this a FEATURE!

But modellers should take care to ensure that each cmp group is properly welded, especially when converting a model from another modelling program, as vertices may appear to be one but may in fact be separated into several vertices when zoomed in. Unfortunately MilkShape’s “Weld to nearest” doesn’t have a clear radius setting to fix that easily.

Do this:

Go find the .ms3d file with the Goran fighter that I posted.

The right wing tip (4 vertices) failed to generate even though it is a reflection of the left wing tip that worked.

We won’t mind that it does not generate for the knife-edge reason but the left one should not generate either. We can ignore the primary failure for now.

Select the right wing tip and Face… Subdivide 2. It now has 6 vertices.

Export and generate. It still failed when I tried it.

We can ignore this as we will skip shapes with less than 8 vertices.

Divide it again into 2.

Export and generate. It still failed to generate when I tried it. How many vertices do you see now? Unacceptable.

Delete the shape.

Make a flat pizza-box.

Export and gen (just do it to see what happens as a checkpoint, it will become clear in a minute). It worked for me.

Select it and move it to the right over the old wing tip.

Export and gen. It FAILED for me. What did we change? NOTHING except position to the right of the Origin.

Unselect the box and reselect it by vertex, do not ignore backfaces.

Put it in place of the right wing tip, pin the bottom left corner over the top-left connection vertex of the right wing by deselecting that vertex, and move the bottom-right corner over the right connection vertex on the wing. Release that and make the box roughly square again.

Export and gen. It worked for me, but it’s not the shape we want, obviously.

Select and move the top-right corner and bring it close to the top-left corner and slightly behind it in the z-Axis.

Export and gen. It failed for me. Why?

Bring the same corner up so it is in front of the top-left corner in the z-Axis.

Export and gen. It worked for me. But it’s not the shape I want. obviously.

Why should only moving one corner forward of another in the z-Axis cause a failure to generate the sur?

Bug.

When I made another square flat box and placed it on the right of the right wing tip box, the gen failed on the right wing tip box when it had succeeded above! Why?

How long has it taken to do this?

And I still don’t have a successful sur.

This is the reason I posted the file, for others to verify my findings.

I do not accept that the builder can work on one 4-vertex shape but fail on its reflection, or work first and then fail when another box is added beside that one and not be a bug.

I have no problem if shapes of 6 vertices and less are ALL skipped deliberately, but a message must be issued so the modeller is alerted.

One more excercise (sidetrack - this is the correct spelling, I hate American spelling in England and especially as this word has invaded the English dictionaries too) :-

Open the other model of many flat boxes.

Some generated ok.

Others did not.

Note the shapes - they were all the same simple flat box.

If you are still convinced, explain how this is not a bug. I will not beieve you.

So do me a favour.

Fix it so all boxes (8 vertices) will generate without failure, no matter what the distortion, we need it badly.

By all means deliberately skip any cmp shape with less than 8 vertices, and issue a message to that effect.

And add the shield bubble option using the squashed sphere.

Then we will wash your feet and dry them with our hair.

OK?

Stop denying, it pisses us off badly.

And stop continuously refuting our evidence, it takes time to make it.

Here’s a fix outline steps:

1. Detect a shape, count the vertices. If less than 8, issue a message “Group xxx not generated, less than 8 vertices.”.

2. If more than 8, do (the existing?) check routine to be sure it is convex.

3. If yes, Copy it as a sur part.

4. If no, make it convex (by disconnecting the connected low vertices and connecting the highest vertices on the 2 adjacent faces causing the concavity - this is called the “Turn Edge” function in MilkShape).

5. Repeat concavity check and fix any other concavities.

6. Save it and go to the next.

Yes, I agree, I am not a programmer but I do know the steps will be complex and I am being glib - but you guys must know how to do this. I am fine with maths, and some simple programming languages, but C, C++ etc. are unknown to me.

Here’s a fix outline steps:

….

if it can be done it will be great …

Agreed Mirkha.

I heart ST…

Can we have a confirmation that someone will try to fix sur builder and a timescale for these changes to be incorporated?

Or confirmation that it is going to someone who cares about it (and us) and will try?

If no-one then I will try but it will take me ages.

Lanced offered it to me ages ago but i refused i dont know enough to complete it
this is what i say why not make it a comunity project
maby svn it and folk can put forward there
code and fixes
so wee can make it one of the realy good tools
im sure Lance wont mind
insted of arguing why not put ower heads toghther and build it
and i also think wee should do othere projects that way

nah, working on one thing commonly is often ending up with failure. just remember your elementary school days, when you wrote short stories. if you wrote them with a mate together, even if you decided on what to write, anyway it ended up not nearly as good as if you write alone. guess it is similar with editing single files commonly especially with so much people.
also, if i remember right, Lance will mind, as the code, changed slightly can be abused badly and this is likelier the more people have their hands on it. we don’t suspect anyone but its not worth the risk, is it?

lol try abousing sur on ower server you end up in the brig
thats what the anticheats for
only fixes that benfit the program are applyed
not everyone is excepted lol

the way i look at it i built my anti cheat and it wasent just my input i maby built it but motah cannon and crazy
swaped ideas around and bits of code i put it toghere
and built it as they did with theres so it dose work
maby have a private code board for projects like these

This project does not need much work, just the changes I have suggested and for me it is finished.

With this functionality I can then make the type of surs that I need without much difficulty by doing some trickery in MilkShape - but it is not possible with the present state of Sur Builder.

If anyone wants more in it they have not said so, and I do not want to keep moving the goalpost, so I would be against more additions/changes. We need to get it finished.