The slow death of the internet…

Well, I wasn’t argueing about the damage I “inflict”, but rather if it is ethically wrong for a single person to purchase used games. (I might have mistaken your answer)

@Gisteron: I think you’d be allowed to share the backup copies with them, but those people would not be able to use them. Again, the current model was never built with the concept that you could easily make a perfect copy of whatever you owned. When photocopy machines first arrived, book publishers were decrying the end of the books industry. When magnetic tapes made their appearance, it was the music industry. VCR, movie industry.

Well, I am not totally sure, but there might be a law/law passage in German law that allows the distribution of music/games/software/movies to near friends and family. But it isn’t clearly defined who belongs to your friend and family, but it is defintivly sure that you can’t call a guy in the internet your friend or maybe “a lot of friends in the internet”.

It has been some time I read about it, so please don’t take it as a total fact or think you can distribute it as you want (for my German pals) in your clique since I am not sure enough about it.

what is piracy actually? if i hack my software so i can use it without the disc, is that piracy already?

Actually, it is at least illegal to bypass copy protection. However, as far as I am aware there is one single exception; when you are not able to use the software except by bypassing the CP. This means, if you are able to buy the software, lengthen a license or whatever you are NOT allowed to workaround the CP, but there might be some cases where you are allowed to do. An example: You bought a game which connects to CP-server and checks if you own a legal copy. If this service gets shut down after two years and you can’t use the software anymore cuase of this, you might be allowed to work around the copy protection.

@Bas: I personally am undecided, but the answer is simple: if you think piracy is bad, then logically used games should also be bad. The original creator doesn’t benefit from it either, and quite a few people can play on a single copy. Obviously, piracy tends to have a much higher ratio of legit:copied, but the principle of the thing is fairly similar.

Since nobody’s really finding used sales to be bad, I think we might need to redefine how piracy is bad. The hardest part is finding a business model that will work without being stupidly ineffective, counter-intuitive and anachronistic like the current one.

As for copy protection, it is illegal to circumvent it unless the publisher/developer has released such a thing. I’m not even sure there are clauses everywhere about bypassing DRM being allowed if you cannot use the product without doing so. I’d hope there is, but…

With regards to taking a book from the library, kinda wrong. You state you pay for the loan. With piracy, you don’t pay for shizzle. The books pay for themselves over the multitude of loans. Just link rental dvd’s/movies. They cost more to buy rental versions, but you can charge.

FriendlyFire wrote:
@Bas: I personally am undecided, but the answer is simple: if you think piracy is bad, then logically used games should also be bad. The original creator doesn’t benefit from it either, and quite a few people can play on a single copy. Obviously, piracy tends to have a much higher ratio of legit:copied, but the principle of the thing is fairly similar.

Since nobody’s really finding used sales to be bad, I think we might need to redefine how piracy is bad. The hardest part is finding a business model that will work without being stupidly ineffective, counter-intuitive and anachronistic like the current one.

Few thoughts:

It is copy per copy. For every person who bought, this item can be resold onwards. Any copy has been paid for and only one is in existence at any point in time…

With piracy, it is one copy (which may not have even been paid for, but is a preview copy) which is then given to MILLIONS. I do not think you can even start to compare the two…

On the release date, for example, of Doom (insert last version) the news stated over 800,000 copies had been illegally downloaded prior to the release. Potentially (not actually) lost revenue of nearly £30 MILLION.

This is a physical impossibility with second hand sales. At any one time there is only 1 physical owner of each individual copy… and each copy has been purchased. Additionally, they have to resale onwards, it takes time and is not instantaneous. Ergo, it is unlikely to hurt new sales (also why games and movies tend to drop in price over time -they recoup their costs, make a profit, and then can start charging less).

Now the big argument is usually that pirated copies do not translate into lost sales. My answer - should I be allowed to have 100 bottles of wine for consumption. Why? Because I’m not going to buy them, so therefore it doesn’t matter - it isn’t a lost sale!

The obvious counter is that wine costs to produce… per bottle. Actually, so do games. The development of games is costing millions per game - with the media reporting that one game cost more to develop than a Hollywood flim (forget which one). A certain amount of games must be sold to cover the cost. However, if it’s okay to steal because you wouldn’t buy anyway, then why should anyone buy.

Personal view:

I cannot see a single justification for piracy, every single one is motivated by self greed. It costs to produce, so every pirated version is a potential lost sale. Using the logic that you wouldn’t buy it anyway, then great, don’t pirate it as you don’t deserve it you cheap bastard If you do, you should be fined or jailed

As for banning software. Well, they license guns to restrict access to those responsible…

I dont use limewire, why, cos its crap. I download from the newsgroups because they are faster and i have never had any virus etc with the files i get from there.

Myself personally i download games and i download them for a reason too. I like to try before i buy because at the end of the day it costs £40 for a game these days (which btw is bloody extortionate) and if im going to pay £40 for a game then i want to know that im going to like that game. So when i see a game i like the look of i download it and try it out, if i like it i buy it. If i dont ive saved myself £40 and from having another coaster to put my coffee on.

Before anyone says “just get the demo” demo’s dont give you the real feel for the game and arent always available for every game that is released.

Movies i dont bother with seeing as i can go to the local store and buy them from between £3 - £7 which i consider to be a reasonable price for them.

But lets face it if the fat cats dont want people to pirate their stuff then dont charge ridiculous amounts of money for it and people wont need to download illegaly.

Mind you if everyone used their heads they’d realise, dont buy new stuff the second its released wait a couple months and guess what? the price goes down lol.

Unfortunately you can’t just put a single face on a pirate and generalize it to everyone else. Pricing, quality, interest, etc. all factor into the equation. Piracy exists for a reason, you know. If there was no flaw in the business model, there would be no piracy. If piracy is so huge nowadays, maybe there’s a reason? I don’t know if you heard of the experiment Valve did with L4D. They made a very, very large sale on the game to see how profits would fare, compared to launch day sales. The result was simple: they had a higher income AND greater profits by selling the game for about a third of its original value.

The thing is that right now we’re faced with a large oligopoly where all the “good” products are sold for high prices. The makers can get compensated and should, but you can’t simply say that those who buy the games are good and those who don’t are evil bastards. It doesn’t work that way. How can you say that all those people who bought games for sale wouldn’t have pirated them otherwise? I think all the industry needs is an important price drop and to stop fucking us with DRM.

Anecdotal evidence: ever since the rise of Steam and finally having good sales on games, I’ve bought more PC games than I had in a long, long time. I’m quite sure I’m not alone.

It is copy per copy. For every person who bought, this item can be resold onwards. Any copy has been paid for and only one is in existence at any point in time…

With piracy, it is one copy (which may not have even been paid for, but is a preview copy) which is then given to MILLIONS. I do not think you can even start to compare the two…

Well that totally depend on where you are in Taiwan and in China MILLIONS !!! of copys of games, movies are soled at shops on the streets/market so your copy per copy aint correct also these shop make profit its sold cheap but they still profit from it unlike a torrent.

When i was at the age of 10-11 i started having Lan’s with my friends we pirated games and shared em so we could play them together. As i grew older i started to get weekly allowance about 20-50 the amount grew with age by the age of 15 it was like 400.
Anyways to get the game i wanted i had to save money for like forever and that gave me enought money to buy ONE game that i didnt even know if i would like or not and yes this was before internet !!! and this is what create’s a pirate as i grew older i got the max allowance i can get 900-1050 the cost of NEW GAME that i want is 499-599 AND THIS IS WHAT MAKES A PIRATE ITS TOO BLOODY EXPENSIVE !!!
So there for i started downloading games now when im older and can afford a couple of games a month but im too used to simply download them so i keep doing so unless its a real good game then in some cases i buy them but its the habit that makes the pirate if was possible for every kid to afford 5 games a month by the time they start playing computer they wouldn’t get into pirating in the first place and that is the source of the problem.

Also selling 1 million for 499 of the games makes em earn money on it
to sell 5 million at a price that children can afford 99,9 would make em earn the same money !!!
ITS THEIR OWN GREEDS FAULT !!!

P.S. if i didnt pirate music i wouldnt listen to it at all and its pretty much the same for movies, games that means that its not a potential sale they lose they dont lose crap cause they didnt have crap to begin with ( yes i would infact be stuck with kizz n iron maiden forever! )

The obvious counter is that wine costs to produce… per bottle. Actually, so do games. The development of games is costing millions per game - with the media reporting that one game cost more to develop than a Hollywood flim (forget which one). A certain amount of games must be sold to cover the cost. However, if it’s okay to steal because you wouldn’t buy anyway, then why should anyone buy.

Well, it should be noted that it doesn’t make any difference if you pirate a game you won’t buy, telling about the costs factor.

I mean, if you don’t pirate a game nor buy it = 0 income for the producer. If you do pirate it, the same applies.

However, this ofc implies that you would NEVER buy a game that you can’t pirate. Means, if there are some instances in whcih you buy the game because you can’t get it for free and you are willing for doing so, this rule doesn’t apply.

Bas wrote:

Well, it should be noted that it doesn’t make any difference if you pirate a game you won’t buy, telling about the costs factor.

This is always trotted out as a justification “why piracy is okay”. It’s right up with the “it’s their own fault it is too expensive”. They are the justification of selfish children…

I put it into a real world counter - the wine.

Here is another. I will never buy an Aston Martin because it’s too #$%% expensive. But I do want one
By the logic of many people here, this means I would be entirely justified to steal one because I can’t afford it otherwise, and therefore they won’t have lost a sale.

Again, people justify their criminal activities “there isn’t really a victim”. Honestly, it’s a crime. End of discussion.

Piracy is greed. Plain and simple. For some fucked up reason we’ve started to believe we are justified to take something that we otherwise cannot afford to have, and deny the fact that we’re just selfish greedy people. We want something and we’ll take it…

Take the vast majority of people who pirate, put them in a shop and say “go on, you’d never buy that - steal it - hide it under your jumper and walk out” and they wouldn’t. It’s wrong, it’s against their moral fibre.

Get on your computer, sit at home and suddenly you’ve got an entirely different moral viewpoint. “Oh it’s not so bad, it’s the companies fault it’s too expensive”. No, it/s your fault you are a greedy bastard Just admit it and stop trying to justify piracy as being their fault.

As for buying more games - it is easy. It’s convenience. If I had to go to the store, I’d never have seen 90% of the games I own. Furthermore, it’s also about a 15 minute walk there, 15 minute walk back, all to look for things I’ve not heard of or seen. Steam… I load, I see something and think “oh, looks interest”. There are reviews, videos, screenshots, demos - all at the finger tips.

Convenience can easily explain the higher sales - not just price.

I do, personally, think games are expensive. Prices are set to offset a risk taken by the publisher in paying for the game, and the money to be made back. However, if I see a game I like and it’s expensive - guess what. I don’t #$%% buy it and I don’t #$%% steal it. I wait. Sometimes a year, sometimes two - and then I get it cheap, on sale.

Ya’ll think it’s fine to steal - knock yourselves out But please, I just ask pirates one thing. Just admit you are a greedy selfish bastard XD XD

p.s. Yes, I stole a few games when I was young. I was selfish, I was greedy. I had things like Doom 2, Wolfenstein 3d, Monkey Island 1. I haven’t pirated a game in… oh boy! I think it was around 1995/1996 when I last pirated a game - the old fashioned way, by handing 3.5" floppy disks After that, I grew up. I changed - it was a concious decision because I didn’t like the person I was making myself into by stealing games

I honestly don’t care about folks stealing games, but I am tired of all the BS justifications. It really is simple. You are greedy, you are selfish - end of

I don’t really care about whether piracy is right or wrong - this often is a matter of personal opinion which hardly could be changed by a forum discussion. I know people who do, I used to do it back when I was a kid with no money, but honestly, the main thing should be “how can we stop it?” It’s entirely useless to jump into philosophical discussions of the ethicality of it all when people won’t stop whatever we say.

I think most companies are unfortunately very, very blind about all of this. They hope a technical solution will solve a human problem. Fat chance. DRM tends to make things even worse, for sometimes pirating gives you fewer problems than actually buying the game (StarForce is a prime example, but so is Ubisoft’s invasive always-online DRM). Steam is, I think, the way forward with this. Yes, it still has DRM, but that’s not what actually makes it so good (in fact I wouldn’t be surprised that Valve put it there just to please corporate execs).

Convenience is certainly one of the advantages; the so-called “impulse buy” is oh so very frequent on there. Still, I think price is the main factor. You wouldn’t do an impulse buy if the game was $20-30, but $5? Sure, why not. Games are overpriced and legal copies tend to cause more trouble than pirated ones. Fix both of those issues and you’ll find yourself with less piracy. You can’t eliminate piracy, but you can totally diminish its importance by playing nicely with your customers.

@Lovernerdboy;
Sry, I just forgot your name ;D

Well, it wasn’t a justification but more some kind of fact, actually.

The difference to your example is that the variable costs are still there if something of material, something “real” gets stolen. If I have a shop and someone steals a bike it is me, the shopkeeper, who has to pay for the stolen bike somehow.

If I run a gaming shop and someone steals a game it is the same. But if someone makes a copy of a game and then bring it and claim it doesn’t work or downloads the game from the internet, the original material is still in my shop and I don’t have to pay for “stealing”.

Now I want to clarify a bit more what I wanted to say before.

If this somebody never intended to buy the game, the consequences for me as the shopkeeper (or also as developer/distributor/publisher) are the same: It doesn’t make a difference to me if somebody pirates a game or just doesn’t buy it - I still get no income from that guy.

However, as mentioned before, it is different of course if this person would buy a game he can’t “pirate” I make a profit, this is true, I can’t say something against that. But if he doesn’t then there is hardly a chance that I have lost money to him. I won’t have earned anything from him anyways.

I think some parts of the “pirates” WILL buy the game if they can’t get it for free, but I cannot say how many. There aren’t just black and white colors in the world, I think very often both sides of this “piracy conflict” are over-reacting. It is not that nobody buys a game if he can’t pirate it nor that ALL pirates aren’t willing to buy the game at all. But I am simple sure some parts WILL buy it, and those parts might be enough for publishers to integrate DRM in order to drive some parts of the pirates to buyers.
This however does of course not reflect my opinion about that DRM should be used.
I also believe that some people might buy a games because it is too hard and stressful for them to go around the DRM/CP and they don’t want to hassle with it. Not that they aren’t able to do so, but they simple aren’t in the mood fixing a lot of troubles and so on - So they go again the easier way and purchase the software. This again might be even known to the industry and this is another reason why they use DRM.

About “greedy pirates”: That’s a bit too much generalism, IMHO. I think there are a lot of different pirates out there, some might be even extremly friendly. Some might even gift other persons stuff regulary or are very helpful to other users. I mean - Take a look at the scene, why should a pirate upload a game? He definitivly doesn’t has any profit of it (ok, mostly at least) and do it for the community they are living in. At least I suspect so.
I don’t think being a pirate makes somebody an extremly bad person.

Dunno if you know about kino.to, it was a movie streaming website which was closed a few weeks ago. The owners made millions of Euros with it, selling premium accounts at their “partner sites” of kino.to. Of course most of them might now go to jail for that. This is totally different from the “pirates” mentioned above.

However, there was study, not published but most likely leaked through an employee, that has researched cinema visitors. Guess what? kino.to watchers did even go more often to the cinema than “no kino.to-users”. Mostly might have even just seen the beginning of a movie there and wanted to see the rest in the cinema.
I am coming to the point now: Of course, the industry didn’t want to publish that study and you hardly even hear about it anywhere since it doesn’t reflect what the industry is telling us.

In this case, “piracy” didn’t harm the industry at all or at such a large impact they are telling us it does. It might have even a positive influence in the kino.to / cinema case.