FLServer and the future

And who builds a new Freelancer.exe with IPv6 support?

=Alex= wrote:
Wolfie, as you said in the Freelancer Network Protocols thread, we could probably build a server which would run on Linux. And then we’d be able to run FLServer on more than one core, and with multi threading support.
Problem with that is that who has the knowledge, contacts and time to do that?

Unless it gets to a point where IPv4 is not able to be used reliably, it should be OK though.

I’ll take the moon alongside that fine FLServer dish.

Why the hell would you waste time making a DirectX-based, outdated and antiquated game server run on LINUX, of all things!? First, games are for Windows, sorry. Second, if you have the knowledge and time to make such a thing, make a new game and get rid of all the crap that FL is.

Remember people, we’re sticking with FL not because it’s a superb piece of software engineering. We’re sticking with FL because nothing better has come along.

FriendlyFire wrote:
First, games are for Windows, sorry. Second, if you have the knowledge and time to make such a thing, make a new game and get rid of all the crap that FL is.

Making games only run on windows is one of the big oversights made by game developers. It’s stupid to limit something to one platform when you are capable of supporting others as well. I don’t have the knowledge to do it, so I don’t plan to. Telling people to make a new game instead of improving an existing one sort of goes against what I think most mods are trying to achieve.

=Alex= wrote:

FriendlyFire wrote:
First, games are for Windows, sorry. Second, if you have the knowledge and time to make such a thing, make a new game and get rid of all the crap that FL is.

Making games only run on windows is one of the big oversights made by game developers. It’s stupid to limit something to one platform when you are capable of supporting others as well. I don’t have the knowledge to do it, so I don’t plan to. Telling people to make a new game instead of improving an existing one sort of goes against what I think most mods are trying to achieve.

I think the number of gamers on Linux (only, no Windows machine available) is probably tiny, and therefore not worth the cost to have to convert your game for Linux operating system (different OS API, OpenGL maybe - dunno, not looked into it).

Probably doesn’t make business sense (quicker to develop a sequel for windows, than port to fulfil a tiny market).

I think Steam is starting by Steam running on Apple’s OS. Surely Linux isn’t a huge stretch, and having a platform like that to deliver will surely encourage developers to take advantage…i think. sort of.

As Chips said, you seem to have little vision of the economics and involvement of the thing.

It is not easy to develop for multiple platforms. You do realize DirectX doesn’t exist on Linux, right? Developers will never support Wine, so don’t even bring that up. We’re speaking hundreds of man-hours for a target market of ridiculously small proportions, most of which isn’t even interested in games in the first place.

It isn’t an oversight, it’s a logical and obvious choice, provided of course you aren’t a blind fanboi. Look at the big picture, man. It’s crystal clear. Case in point, now that Mac is hype again and is gaining a more significant market share, oh miracle, games are being developed for the platform. How strange, huh?

As for your last line, modding exists because it’s easier to mod than to start over. That much is true. However, what you’re speaking of is harder than to start over! Instead of using modern technologies and developing your own infrastructure, you’re asking people to try to reverse engineer an entire game and engine and then rebuild it from scratch on a different operating system with entirely alien frameworks and structure. Do you even see what that entails? There’s no such thing as a spirit to modding. It’s just the go-to place for people who don’t see themselves as game developers and yet who want to go further than being mere players.

I edited my post to simplify whilst you posted

What FF means is that to put FL onto Linux, you’d have to turn from DirectX to OpenGL for starters. This would require re-writing the code.
Next up, the API for the OS is different. C++ code for Windows won’t run upon Linux. You have to recode it (to an extent, someone like Adoxa would give a MUCH more accurate description).

I wouldn’t know where to begin, let alone how to achieve it Someone like Adoxa can probably give a far more accurate assessment of the difficulties (I don’t know people’s programming knowledge, so others can too )

As for the Server, depends what it actually does, but since it controls the AI and is responsible, it indicates it’d require similar alterations.

I’ve no idea about WINE*, never seen it, let alone used it

*Unless you’re talking a nice Shiraz Cabernet Sauvignon… at which point I am a frequent user

Developers will never support Wine, so don’t even bring that up.

Not 100%ly correctly.

Although it isn’t a game, teamviewer.com released a “linux version” which is infact nothing more than a wine compatible version (as I have read).

Another interesting point is, although it doesn’t nullify the “linux niche market” argument is this article:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Linux-users-contribute-twice-as-much-as-Windows-users

In short, there was some kind of “humble bundle” which included about 6 games (aviable for Mac, Windows & Linux) for what the “buyer” could pay any price he wants (yep, even 0.01 U$D were possible). In the end, the average linux user did “donate” almost as twice as much as the average windows user. This means, that linux users are indeed interested in games and will pay for them, even if they are proprietary. They are even willing to pay more than windows users.

Here is an article from wolfire games why game developers might at least should consider to support all three major plattforms:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2008/12/why-you-should-support-mac-os-x-and-linux/

I don’t say it overwights the value of money which is necessary to create the cross-plattform games, but they are at least things to might think about.

I just love this blog. It comes up with interesting articles and a very different point of view.

@Chips: Wine tries to “translate” the Windows-Code to linux equivalents. It doesn’t work always or with the same performance as with Windows, but it has worked out pretty often good. I personally have played Warcraft III at Wine and after some configuration to get the game running it ran at the same speed as with Windows (I didn’t record frames per second, just my feeling - it might has been running even better than at Windows).

In theory, it might be even easier to work on a re-coded FLServer version which is wine compatible instead of re-writing it to be 100%ly Linux compatible. So, an indirect way might lead to the same goal (I mean, Wine might take off some work for you (for the code it already translates fine).

i belive lance is working on a engine wee might be able to use

Bas wrote:
In the end, the average linux user did “donate” almost as twice as much as the average windows user.

This is superficially interesting…it is interesting, I say superficially because what they are presenting is significantly lacking in information.

For example - I would be interested to know the age demographic for all the people donating, as well as their employment, income and traditional outlay for games.

For example:

If there are many games for your platform you may be more discerning about how much you spend. If there is only 1 game, you may have different concerns - such as giving more (which they state), or simply the knowledge that you don’t have to budget to get the maximum game experiences for your money.

BUT

there is no demographics of the donors - such as their income, their occupation, number of games etc. It may be that Linux users are willing to pay more on average simply because Windows users involves youngsters with little income, or what income they do get, spread across multiple game titles (they have to spend wisely).

However, it is quite a sizeable difference in price. Impressive (but I’m still thinking the linux users are all employed 30-50 yr old computer professionals…such a stereotyped view!)

Bas wrote:

@Chips: Wine tries to “translate” the Windows-Code to linux equivalents. It doesn’t work always or with the same performance as with Windows, but it has worked out pretty often good. I personally have played Warcraft III at Wine and after some configuration to get the game running it ran at the same speed as with Windows (I didn’t record frames per second, just my feeling - it might has been running even better than at Windows).

In theory, it might be even easier to work on a re-coded FLServer version which is wine compatible instead of re-writing it to be 100%ly Linux compatible. So, an indirect way might lead to the same goal (I mean, Wine might take off some work for you (for the code it already translates fine).

That is actually cool, I’ve never looked at it - I know I should be aware of it, but I’ve always ignored it by working on the principle that if I use Linux, it’s to get away from Windows…not then use Windows on Linux

C, I have added something about wine in my last post:
€// LOOOL. You read my edit after I added it to this next posting. That an epic fail for both of us, isn’t it?

Another interesting point is, although it doesn’t nullify the “linux niche market” argument is this article: http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Linux … -as-much-as-Windows-users In short, there was some kind of “humble bundle” which included about 6 games (aviable for Mac, Windows & Linux) for what the “buyer” could pay any price he wants (yep, even 0.01 U$D were possible). In the end, the average linux user did “donate” almost as twice as much as the average windows user. This means, that linux users are indeed interested in games and will pay for them, even if they are proprietary. They are even willing to pay more than windows users. Here is an article from wolfire games why game developers might at least should consider to support all three major plattforms: http://blog.wolfire.com/2008/12/why-y … pport-mac-os-x-and-linux/ I don’t say it overwights the value of money which is necessary to create the cross-plattform games, but they are at least things to might think about. I just love this blog. It comes up with interesting articles and a very different point of view. @Chips: Wine tries to “translate” the Windows-Code to linux equivalents. It doesn’t work always or with the same performance as with Windows, but it has worked out pretty often good. I personally have played Warcraft III at Wine and after some configuration to get the game running it ran at the same speed as with Windows (I didn’t record frames per second, just my feeling - it might has been running even better than at Windows). In theory, it might be even easier to work on a re-coded FLServer version which is wine compatible instead of re-writing it to be 100%ly Linux compatible. So, an indirect way might lead to the same goal (I mean, Wine might take off some work for you (for the code it already translates fine).

Sure, that article is no deep analysis, but it provides at least a tendence.

there is no demographics of the donors - such as their income, their occupation, number of games etc. It may be that Linux users are willing to pay more on average simply because Windows users involves youngsters with little income, or what income they do get,

This is- in my opinion - not such important for the high pets out there. They want to see the money, why people are buying that games on that plattform is less important for them.

spread across multiple game titles (they have to spend wisely).

This might be indeed a point why people are paying more for Linux games, but this could also mean that publishers might should take their chance to be one of the very few developers for this plattform (less concurrence, eh?).

That is actually cool, I’ve never looked at it - I know I should be aware of it, but I’ve always ignored it by working on the principle that if I use Linux, it’s to get away from Windows…not then use Windows on Linux

Can be quit useful if you don’t want to miss a few applications which you loved at Windows, especially games.

For FF, this is an interesting article about openGL:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX
What caught my attention pretty much was the FUD of M$ and the fear that openGL won’t be supported properly at Windows Vista anymore.

I’m sorry but there’s no FUD in the fact that OpenGL is lagging behind. Just that is justification enough for most devs to support DX over OGL.

Also no, you still don’t understand. Wine is a fix at best. A company would never take the legal risk to rest their entire support infrastructure for an operating system on THAT. If you can’t see that, you’re seriously deluding yourself. I like Wine, it’s nice for tinkerers, it’s an excellent stopgap solution, but you cannot hope to ever see a game get released on this officially.

As for the indie package…. Why yes, indie devs do tend to release for more platforms. Indie games also tend to be many orders of magnitude smaller on all levels. It’s much more practical to port a 2D game with simple gameplay than it is to port Mass Effect 2. Again, I feel you are grasping at straws.

The reality is harsh, but you can’t honestly tell me Linux is a suitable gaming platform. Do I like that fact? No. Do I understand it and accept it? Yes.

I’m sorry but there’s no FUD in the fact that OpenGL is lagging behind. Just that is justification enough for most devs to support DX over OGL.

I don’t say it doesn’t nor do I say it does, I simple don’t have enough insight into this scene.
I find it just interesting, the whole stuff behind the scenes, and for the second sentence, that M$ did some FUD-strategies against openGL whcih just strengthen the position of DirectX. I am just thinking about the situation that openGL should never be implented into Vista (which was a DirectLie) but finally got after all. So many game devs were focussing at DX then (weakening openGL’s position).

Also no, you still don’t understand. Wine is a fix at best. A company would never take the legal risk to rest their entire support infrastructure for an operating system on THAT. If you can’t see that, you’re seriously deluding yourself. I like Wine, it’s nice for tinkerers, it’s an excellent stopgap solution, but you cannot hope to ever see a game get released on this officially.

I wasn’t referring to games, just to the single case of teamviewer (at least if my memory and information source don’t betray me).

As for the indie package…. Why yes, indie devs do tend to release for more platforms. Indie games also tend to be many orders of magnitude smaller on all levels. It’s much more practical to port a 2D game with simple gameplay than it is to port Mass Effect 2. Again, I feel you are grasping at straws.

Well, at least one game of the humble bundle is in 3D (Lugaro) and his successor…Overgrowth is as well in 3D-graphics. Though I am not deep enough into such stuff to draw more complex conclusions, but you are at least certainly right that 2D games are A LOT easier to port to another plattform.

The reality is harsh, but you can’t honestly tell me Linux is a suitable gaming platform. Do I like that fact? No. Do I understand it and accept it? Yes.

Suitable maybe not. But it isn’t entirely excluded from gaming, also because of wine (Eh, I just read that SC II runs quite good at it).
There are games which you can play at Linux, but surely by far not as many as at Windows.
Hence, atm I am even at Windows XP (shame on me!) to play Gothic I & Freelancer, blame this #$%% stupid graphics card drivers for ATI Radeon 9550 (pretty sure that those are the sources of my problems).
That’s another point I heard when I was travelling to a friend for a weekend a week ago, I mean, you and maybe even me might be Linux lunatics, but those two guys there were by far beyond that. One of them said Linux could only become a real gaming plattform if good graphics card drivers/interfaces gets released by the manufacturers.

Eh FF…weren’t we at this stage already earlier?

Pretty much

The only thing I’m saying is that Wine is good and exists, but it’ll never be officially supported because it wouldn’t be a safe bet for any respectable company. They’d expose themselves to a ton of crap if they did. Honestly, it’d be as if a dev asked you to run an Xbox 360 emulator to play their PC games. Would that make any sense? No, but for those who want to use it without support, it’s a nice alternative.

I said 2D to make a clear case, but 3D games can be simple too. Look at Minecraft - can’t get much more simple than that as far as graphics go.

Then you haven’t been following things closely, Wolfie. DirectX basically dictates GPU features. DirectX is being updated quickly while it took years for OpenGL to sort itself up.

OGL is reorienting itself towards viz apps. Heck, id gave up on OGL. That alone should be more than enough to tell you OGL is lagging behind.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Games are produced on the back of an investors money, seeing as the majority of people who use linux etc don’t see fit to invest money in so much as buying an OS, what would lead those developers to believe that they would spend money on the software and games they run on it. Games also need good graphics drivers, Nvidia and ATI invest a lot of cash and engineering man hours in many of todays quality games, their return is in the hardware we buy to run the games, at present that would be something with a dx11 sticker on it. Again, they probably think linux users dont invest in the OS, so probably have a piss poor computer, probably don’t invest in regular graphics cards upgrades, probably pirate their games, probably don’t pay for anything at all if they can help it, so screw em.

The linux argument is just like that horrible little whining noise you get in your ear from time to time, it happens for no good reason and once it starts it just doesn’t seem in any hurry to go away.

Nice try Wolfie (a few posts back, to get it on track)

kosacid wrote:
i belive lance is working on a engine wee might be able to use

Kosacid - any more details as to what this means? Right now it’s a little too cryptic for me to be able to get the gist of what you mean

All the Linux vs Windows, DirectX vs OpenGL… unless anyone really works with either or both of these, then I don’t think it’s right to say which is best without sources (Bas provides some, but I can’t help feeling that source is biased ).