What's the Secret of NavMap items?

Moonhead

Edit - deleted to save you all the crap I wrote

cata123

From what is saw , you must edit interface.generic.vms , there is stored all icons for space objects , the 3db from spaceobjects are just index and texture.

Moonhead

cata123 wrote:
From what is saw , you must edit interface.generic.vms , there is stored all icons for space objects , the 3db from spaceobjects are just index and texture.

:lol: I seriously read ‘torture’ instead of texture.

Thanks for the feedback; you might be right, but: I got it working!!

I decided to not use one of FL’s navmap items, but the icon Adoxa used in his example (bh_elite). I thought that all 3db files had the same structure, but this is not the case. In the XML project files, the commodity icons have an xml file more. Maybe this is where the interface.generic.vms is in the stock NavMap icons. I don’t know and I’m not gonna find out anywhere soon coz I just got what I wanted before I’m on some mini-holiday my gf arranged (and she made it clear I am not taking my laptop with me )

Now, I’ve finally got my planet on the map - and the happiness of knowing how to make more…

Of course I now have to check whether there aren’t conflichts with the bh_elite ship icon. Don’t think so, but my experiences this evening learned me the FL files can be weird.

Anyway - these words might as well be my signature - thanks again, Adoxa

Moonhead

(I like my universe map more though, and it was much easier than messing with the 3db icon! - Again, thx to Adoxa’s Territory plugin)

Gisteron

nice job
btw about the universe map: is it actually possible to have multiple “universes”, connected by “hypergates”? so, the universe map being shown is depending on which system you are being in? (to make things easier, no switch possible on the map window itself).

adoxa

I don’t think multiple universes are feasible (as in multiple universe.ini files), but it might be possible to add an extra value to [system] sections, so systems only show up when you’re in a related system. For example:

[system]
nickname = Li01
...
map = 1

[system]
nickname = Li02
;all following systems get the previous map value

...

[system]
nickname = Br01
map = 2

[system]
nickname = Br02
...

```When you're in Liberty, the universe will show all "1" systems; in Bretonia, you get the "2" systems.

cata123

Nice universe map you done there , i`m interested about 90% for modding FL in exploring and creating new universes, you got a good idea making that .

Timmy51m

Moonhead wrote:
(I like my universe map more though, and it was much easier than messing with the 3db icon! - Again, thx to Adoxa’s Territory plugin)

Now that’s a nice map! Are those new sectors just ideas waiting to to be populated with working systems? If so, you’ve got your work cut out buddy! Have you got any available data on what’s going on in this mod, or are you just rolling with it so to speak.

Gisteron

cool stuff, Adoxa. so in theory you could make the background a generic star brush and make multiple sets of universes overlapping each other where each is only shown when you’re in it. is it possible then to say, have multiple systems on same coordinates, if they have different map = values?
or, best would be, if you can make the background to be depending on the map = value, too. ofc only if youre willing to get to it one day xD. just don’t like it to make it the “discovery style”, where the whole grid is filled up with systems and the illusion of randomly placed worlds is being destroyed.

Xalrok

Gisteron wrote:
cool stuff, Adoxa. so in theory you could make the background a generic star brush and make multiple sets of universes overlapping each other where each is only shown when you’re in it. is it possible then to say, have multiple systems on same coordinates, if they have different map = values?
or, best would be, if you can make the background to be depending on the map = value, too.

I was thinking about the navmap background as well. FL can read directories, like in the case of the Patriot from Shiparch.ini:

DA_archetype = ships\liberty\li_fighter\li_fighter.cmp

```Maybe this could be done in the plugin? Just tell FL which navmap to use by directing it to the right CMP file, just like ships and equipment, perhaps using a file like territory ini? Like this:

[Sector]
Map = 1
navmap_archetype = DATA\INTERFACE\NEURONET\NAVMAP\NEWNAVMAP\nav_prettymap.3db
systems = Li01-5
[Sector]
Map = 2
navmap_archetype = DATA\INTERFACE\NEURONET\NAVMAP\NEWNAVMAP\nav_newmodmap.3db
systems = Ew05-6

Moonhead

cata123 wrote:
Nice universe map you done there , i`m interested about 90% for modding FL in exploring and creating new universes, you got a good idea making that .

I like exploring the most too! In fact I find the space fights not really that enjoying at all. (Yet, that is where most of the game takes place, and were most of the engine is aimed at)

Btw it will take quite some time before I’ve realized something substantial, so don’t get excited

Timmy51m wrote:

Now that’s a nice map! Are those new sectors just ideas waiting to to be populated with working systems? If so, you’ve got your work cut out buddy!

:lol: yeah I realize that…. Which, btw is why I’ve been so lazy/leechy in previous threads about shield/weapon dynamics and hardpoints - because to be totally honest, I’m not really highly interested in these subjects. I mainly wanna make lots of new systems (planets, starspheres, infocards, background stories) !! But of course these would be quite boring if they were flled with all the stuff everyone already knows, so it’s unavoidable I’ve to get into every aspect of the game, to make altered / additional stuff.

Same goes for new ships: although I do (or should rather say did because it’s years ago) like 3d modelling, I see it as a distraction and not really where my heart is. But - new factions with the same old ships would be boring.

Timmy51m wrote:
Have you got any available data on what’s going on in this mod, or are you just rolling with it so to speak.

I think the latter. I’ve got a lot of in my head, based on mods I made earler (but never released - or even really finished). The general idea is: FL, post-storyline, more of the same - but a lot more. I could elaborate but that would be a bit premature…

Btw the new sectors are the latest idea, mainly because I wanted to see if I could do that with the NavMap… So I kinda took names that made sense and were also not too long… But ideas are popping up However, I first gotta finish my ideas for the Sirius sector which already require four additional houses…

You now, what? I will elaborate; I’m typing now anyway, and it’ll be some commitment to force myself to actually finish something within this decade:

Sirius:

A. Four new houses:
Batavia - based on 17th century Netherlands. Navy and police, several companies (one of which exclusively and aggresively specializes in water management)
Skadia - based on skandinavia (duh) No real plans sofar
Veda - based on ancient India (gotta make a bunch of silly ships with wings, just like the Jap/Kusari ships but more Hindu deity-like) Factions based on the ancient Caste system rather than navy/companies etc. So: priests (scientists), warriors, big companies, small traders, and pariahs.
Hispania - some Corsair chieftains decided to lead a more respectable life. Meaning they now got a tradelade between Crete (or was it Malta? I always confuse!) and Tripoli

B. More systems in general
More Indy Worlds, and preferably some more systems for Sigma, Tau etc. as well as more of these regions (Rho, Epsilon etc.)

C. Hidden systems
21) A ‘marooned’ chain of systems where people ended up thru malfunctioning jump gates. I already had this idea for some time, but now with Adoxa’s random jump plugin it will be much easier and much more gracefully implemented. Here, faction affiliations no longer matter (meaning I have to make alts of al factions involved). Some people are looking for a way to get back to civilization, other people decide to make life as enjoyable as possible.

2) A ‘netherworld’ chain of systems I want some hidden systems with gateways surrounded by superstition, like a Maelstrom in Skadia and a Well of Wyrd in Batavia (guarded by some all-female Witch faction who call it the Womb) I haven’t worked out this idea beyond this

3) Some gateway to a parallel universe, maybe to the distant past or future (or both) Maybe overlapping with -2-

D. New Sectors

Deneb
Should rival with Sirius, civilization-wise. Also human in nature, originating from earth. Maybe some grand war going on, in which the player can engage

Core Sector
Huge sunse, densely pack, lots or radiation. The player would have to have a very good reason to travel here (and I have no idea yet what that might be)

Draco Sector
A small satellite galaxy, with lots of dark matter and mostly old stars, red giants.

The Tarantula Sector
Located in the Large Magellan Cloud (another satellite of the Milky way) My first idea was to call it R136 secotr, but I will now make R136 a region within Tarantula - together with Hodge 301

NGC 2419 Sector
Yet another milky way satellite. The most remore, iirc. Probably very interesting!

The Void sector
Rumored to be only displayed on the NavMap for symmetry reasons, though there are some rumors some travellers actually found themselves in an intergalactic void (either the Local Void or the Great Boötes Void). It’d be trilling to see if I can make an interesting system based around the idea of ‘nothingness’, but I’m not sure…

My main concern is, that when I’ll have a beta version finished, we’ll be at Windows Twelve of whatever, and IPv8…Anyone wanting to play it, including me will need an old computer or a Windows XP/Vista/Seven emulator! :lol:****

Gisteron

Xarlok wrote:

[Sector]
Map = 1
navmap_archetype = DATA\INTERFACE\NEURONET\NAVMAP\NEWNAVMAP\nav_prettymap.3db
systems = Li01-5
[Sector]
Map = 2
navmap_archetype = DATA\INTERFACE\NEURONET\NAVMAP\NEWNAVMAP\nav_newmodmap.3db
systems = Ew05-6

this is pretty much of what i thought of, too, but without the systems parameter. in universe.ini you could just link each system to one of the [sector]s in the plugin ini. (maybe a more classic parameter for sector definition would be “nickname”, and would be a string). the navmap would then display all systems that are linked to the same [sector] as the one the player is being within.

cata123

@moonhead , ok , and where the “aliens” are ?
It will become pretty boring if you don`t add at least a new species of aliens (except from oldy nomads).
I had an idea about story of freelancer , for example returning to our solar system , the colony from sirius to found some very advanced old coalition, changing their human shapes (this is more like the jovian empire story from eve online , where because of genethic manipulations , they altered they shape and became something different , like a human-machine organisms).
And about the system editing , for me is the hardest part (almost impossible) to make what i want - every system unique, size about 300x300k + , suns bigger than planets and planets much bigger than the largest battleship ; the most stupid example is Ross planetoid from bretonia , where the battleship is almost at the size of the planet .

Xalrok

cata123 wrote:
And about the system editing , for me is the hardest part (almost impossible) to make what i want - every system unique, size about 300x300k + , suns bigger than planets and planets much bigger than the largest battleship ; the most stupid example is Ross planetoid from bretonia , where the battleship is almost at the size of the planet .

I have to disagree with this. Yes, the scaling is bad in Freelancer but the problem that arises is fun vs reality.
Making systems larger can make them realistic, but at the same time they become emptier and crossing them can be a bore. Yes, you could increase the speeds on ships, but then if you run the risk of making them uncontrollable in asteroid fields. It’s also harder to find players when there are 150 200x200k systems.

From an exploration perspective it might make sense to have larger systems, but as (StarTrader?) said a while ago, making systems bigger will only players spend a bit more time travelling between one discovery and another. Seems more fun to actually be making discoveries rather than spending time reaching them.

The best implementation of realistic scale I’ve seen so far was the way X3 Terran Conflict handled it, with Trans-Orbital Accellerators (Aka tradelanes which send the player between “systems” which represent each planet.) You had realistic scale but the systems could be small at the same time.

Anyway, the scale of systems might be weird in Freelancer but it’s a much better option than having vast but empty systems. This is a game: Fun > Realism IMO.

Moonhead

cata123 wrote:
@moonhead , ok , and where the “aliens” are ?
It will become pretty boring if you don`t add at least a new species of aliens (except from oldy nomads).

In my sofar vague plans, there must be at least two or three alien races, and not necessarily sapient ones. And a couple of non-human faction closely and causally related to humankind. But I think it is fitting to not to focus too much on alien species; it is sort of a signature feature of FL that it focuses heavily on mankind, so any alien factions I might implement will probably not of the kind we see in Star Wars, but more some eary background presence, beings with whom mankind (more specific: the player) can hardly communicate directly.

A revisiting of our own solar system is also in the planning, on the side, mainly because a few years ago I was in a good modding vibe and made all solar system’s planets and about half of it’s moons (actually I’m getting into the planet building stuff these days). it has been done in more mods and I don’t wanna make too much work of it. Btw the textures I used I all found thru google - and I forgot to note the original authors…. I had to make them all fit the FL planet setup -a planet being a cube inflated to look like a sphere- , which at the time seemed to most work to me, and I didn’t give it a thought that these texture files themselves were also made by some people, prolly based on NASA phographs)

And about the system editing , for me is the hardest part (almost impossible) to make what i want - every system unique, size about 300x300k + , suns bigger than planets and planets much bigger than the largest battleship ; the most stupid example is Ross planetoid from bretonia , where the battleship is almost at the size of the planet .

I’ve been there too, but have arrived largely at the same conclusion as Xalrok: a really realistic system would be utterly boring and empty. (And on a side note: we should then also eliminate engine and weapon sounds, as there is no sound in space - sound being waves propagating thru a medium, which is lacking in space.)

I did however contemplate to get rid of most of the Houses stars, and turn each house into one solar sytem each, divided over several game systems. So this would largely be a cosmetic operation, where e.g. each of Liberty systems would no longer have a central star, but some central gas giant, and Manhattan, Los Angeles, Denver and Houston would be moons rather than planets and the sun would be some NON_TARGETABLE somewhere on the side. The sun would look the same for all Liberty Systems, but on a different scale, so it would appear that each system was at a different distance of the same central star. The House of Liberty would thus represent one star systems, divided into several jump nodes.

The main disadvantage of this approach, is that this way all the system light would come from one side, and these systems were originally not designed for this. Freelancer also doesn’t render shadows* so it looks a bit dull. I haven’t totally given up on this concept, and will use it for my custom houses.

*(I mean: FL does render a shadowy side on a planet, being the side opposed to where a system light is, but a small moon before a large gasgiant won’t caste a shadow on that gas giant.)

This wouldn’t really make the game systems larger, but instead of representing a stellar system, they would represent a part of it (like the Jupiter or Saturn system).

cata123

. Yes, you could increase the speeds on ships, but then if you run the risk of making them uncontrollable in asteroid fields.

Yea, and there comes the beauty of game : deadly asteroid fields.
In realistic way, a collision with an asteroid is equivalent to ship breaking to pieces, not just some little shield damage in a titan with adv brigandine shield crashing to an asteroid .
Anyway the scale of planets and suns in FL is really unrealistic, and its not so boring making the system a little larger, eventually adding more objects to the system and making planets on Y axis too, also removing the ship auto level (what the hell, there is no gravity, you cant say that is up or that is down ), eventually removing the engine drag.
An another example is types of planets - large gas giants same size as rocky planets and worse , the sun smaller than both !!
Well, that is unnaceptable in my opinion, and im gonna change this (in my mod). Take a look in this video http://www.220.ro/documentare/Stele-Si-Planete-Foarte-Mari/xlSYawB7ih/ I didnt tested yet but i read about the possibility to add systems on top on each other , on different Y axis, and the navmap revealing just the system on same axis, not all.

Moonhead

cata123 wrote:

large gas giants same size as rocky planets and worse , the sun smaller than both !!
Well, that is unnaceptable in my opinion, and i`m gonna change this (in my mod).

I agree with you on this one, although enlarging the stars beyond 10K or so doesn’t really add much as there isn’t much makeup to add to a star (except for the splines but tbh I think these are a bit goofy)

Btw the asteroid fields aren’t realistic at all (neither is the one in The Empire Strikes Back). Of course it looks cool, but in real asteroid field, the asteroids are really widely seperated - it’s mostly empty, and you’d need to skill to try to actually crash your ship on an asteroid!

Xalrok

Moonhead wrote:
I agree with you on this one, although enlarging the stars beyond 10K or so doesn’t really add much as there isn’t much makeup to add to a star (except for the splines but tbh I think these are a bit goofy)

Btw the asteroid fields aren’t realistic at all (neither is the one in The Empire Strikes Back). Of course it looks cool, but in real asteroid field, the asteroids are really widely seperated - it’s mostly empty, and you’d need to skill to try to actually crash your ship on an asteroid!

I’ve found the main problem with making suns larger is that coronas seem to have a limit preventing them from going beyond a certain size. An obvious solution to this would be a series of damage zones that increase the amount of damage they do as you get closer.

The most realistic asteroid field you’ll ever see in the entire game is Tohoku’s. I’m pretty sure that the clouds in FL are unrealistically dense as well.

Moonhead

Xalrok wrote:

I’ve found the main problem with making suns larger is that coronas seem to have a limit preventing them from going beyond a certain size. An obvious solution to this would be a series of damage zones that increase the amount of damage they do as you get closer.

:lol: I’m curious to what size you tried them, then…. I think I never made a sun beyond 30K or so, and decided it didn’t really add anything…

Xalrok wrote:

I’m pretty sure that the clouds in FL are unrealistically dense as well.

Yes, probably so. In fact, the game does not at all really provide us with how it would be in real space… But it’s cool nonetheless. And I can really sympathize with Cata123’s ambitions to get more realism into the game. it’s just, like you say, that this shouldn’t diminish the possible fun in the game.

Gisteron

space is huge. i am sure some nebula or asteroid field as small as they are in FL, somewhere out there might be as dense as that, why not. for the suns dilemma… well, crossfire has a pretty realistic solution, based on generic sph. maybe their screenshots are inspiration enough to create something similar for the purpose of realism.