[Sur Tutorial] Hitbox from 3DSMAX to Freelancer
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I guess I must have missed them then, my apologies.
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CzW and Mirkha and TrueSilver and FF (and anyone else I missed who contributed to this?)-
Very many thanks for this super tutorial, it is very encouraging.
And for making me use my little French language knowledge again after 20 years of last use, it’s a lot better now after 2 days of using online translators!
No, please leave the original French post, it’s good for this community that people can post Tutorials in their own language for clarity in my opinion, and the translated ones can be posted below as in this case. And it did my French knowledge the world of good! German or Spanish next please!
May I suggest links to .pdf files of the tutorials so people can download them easily too?
Clearly our problem with the old ways of making surs is MilkShape then, and possibly some exporter problems too.
There are two things which I do differently:-
1. Break down my ships into at least the quantity of sur parts that I need
2. Name the ship cmp groups sensible names starting with the ship name, such as:BlackSun_Hull
BlackSun_LWing
BlackSun_RWing
BlackSun_LEng
BlackSun_REng
BlackSun_TopFin
BlackSun_BotFin
and my surs for this would be named:BlackSun_Hull_lod1
BlackSun_LWing_lod1
BlackSun_RWing_lod1
BlackSun_LEng_lod1
BlackSun_REng_lod1
BlackSun_TopFin_lod1
BlackSun_BotFin_lod1
and my sur-spicer input.ini file will be:-BlackSun_Hull_lod1.sur root
BlackSun_LWing_lod1.sur BlackSun_LWing_lod1
BlackSun_RWing_lod1.sur BlackSun_RWing_lod1
BlackSun_LEng_lod1.sur BlackSun_LEng_lod1
BlackSun_REng_lod1.sur BlackSun_REng_lod1
BlackSun_TopFin_lod1.sur BlackSun_TopFin_lod1
BlackSun_BotFin_lod1.sur BlackSun_BotFin_lod1
By doing this:--
a. there is no accidental mixing of parts between two different ships if they appear together (this happens when two different ship models are visible which each have one group with exactly the same internal name as the other - You may end up with groups named Group02 to Groupnn in more than one ship that you make, for example, and bs1_sur01 can mean BlackSun Sur01 or BattleShipOne Sur01 etc, but BlackSun_Hull_lod1 is explicit to one ship).
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b. the sur names (shipgroupname_lod1 etc.) will now be correct and will match the cmp file FIX data, so there is no need to check or change it, and the xxx_cons_fix.dat file made by sur-splicer will not be used (it must still be specified in the ini file though).
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c. there is no need to add extra dummy ship cmp groups (the small spheres) to make the sur part names attach, they will attach to the ship groups correctly.
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d. When exporting the cmp, the number of groups will be the same as the model groups, the quantities will be the number of parts making each group (for example the group BlackSun_LEng may have parts LEngIntake, LEngExhaust and LEngGrills) so this group quantity will be 4.
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e. When exporting the surs, the group count will still be 1 (1 by 1 export) and they cannot have sub-parts.
CzW, Mirkha -
Can you please tell me if doing it this way instead of making the extra spheres will cause any problems?One more suggestion - the Havok tools for 3DSMAX enable convex hull parts to be created quickly from the ship groups, and these can be used as they are (or you can now put in your hollow bits) as the collision box parts - do you have any bad experience in making surs with these tools?
Many thanks again for this tutorial. The revelation for me is 3DSMAX. I did use it before but must have changed the sur parts in MilkShape somehow, probably by using Face - Smooth All, which changes the orientation of the normals I believe?
Even when avoiding concave parts, the problems I had still caused me a lot of frustration and a lot of wasted time before I got it right (sometimes), but I still have difficulties with some parts from time to time, so I am one who will definitely benefit from this method.
Please ignore whatever negative comments, you have proven that it works.
One general comment on the replies I have seen here - I do dislike it (VERY much!) when people are off-handed with a person who has put so much time and effort into making a new and very useful addition or tutorial such as this one.
The ones who brag “I’ve done such and such xxx times” etc. and are knowledgeable but have never given out their precise method clearly, but only made vague hints and innuendos, are being unkind even though they do not realise this. Their inconclusive posts have caused me many days of wild-goose chases and more time wasting than necessary in the past, and I’m speaking from personal experience.
Opr8R old pal - I do respect your greater knowledge my friend, but you’ve gone back to your old short and sour ways again, please stop it! Be NICE - tell us YOUR foolproof way to make first-time surs 300 times with only MilkShape, sur-splicer (? no sur-splicer?), the cmp exporter (which version?), the sur exporter (which version?) and a piece of string (was it wet?) and a piece of used chewing gum!!!
Get a bad Russian woman or something, put a smile on your face (until your frau hits you)!! (Hey - You’re not a Scot too, secretly, are you? I thought you’re a Sachsenach!) -
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sry but i didnt post a tutorial because I believe that every FL community has those tutorials already and my methods are not much different from those explained on those tutorials (maybe a bit faster… maybe with less steps to do… but generally the same procedure)
I simply believe that there is no need to write new tutorials while there are existing ones… especially now that im in the final phase to release a 2gb FL mod (and there is still much to do)Its not my intention to talk bad about this method… i just mentioned that there are situations where the other methods might work better.
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pdf : good idea, i’ll make it this week
i don’t rename the ships groups because i rename the dummy object and when i export the cmp each cmp group have the dummy object name.
at the end we need to rename only the group1.CzW, Mirkha -
Can you please tell me if doing it this way instead of making the extra spheres will cause any problems?i don’t know. i use the truesilver method to export so i don’t have made test without the spheres.
One more suggestion - the Havok tools for 3DSMAX enable convex hull parts to be created quickly from the ship groups, and these can be used as they are (or you can now put in your hollow bits) as the collision box parts - do you have any bad experience in making surs with these tools?
not yet tested but … my processor is an AMD. and it’s a intel tools…
in my to do list and i give you feedback.
but what i know is if you use other tool than the Standard primitive, your sur will be good BUT the suns flare throught your model …for example with spline tools :
without :
Many thanks again for this tutorial. The revelation for me is 3DSMAX. I did use it before but must have changed the sur parts in MilkShape somehow, probably by using Face - Smooth All, which changes the orientation of the normals I believe?
yes. you must not change the hitbox made in 3dsmax with milkshape.
and in my opinion : why do this ?
3dsmax is more powerfull to make changes on your shapes ;).Please ignore whatever negative comments, you have proven that it works.
as usual. you know, i’m admin of a french communauty
the french guys sometimes are … grouser ^^
not problem for who thinks that this technique is not good :).
each is free to use or not ^^ each is free to think what he wants and it’s good like this
anyway, it’s just another way and i’m sure other people can do great work without this technique. -
Good Tutorial Mirkha! This is good for the 3dsMAX users and those more comfortable with its easy to use interface.
For those looking to make SUR’s without use of SUR Splicing (i.e. ships without multiple components), please check this tutorial I posted… http://the-starport.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=1002.msg7934#msg7934
You can decide which suits your needs.
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Would i be possible that this could be submitted into the Tutorial Archives? The tutorial section was made for a reason
http://the-starport.net/index.php?option=com_ja_submit&Itemid=40
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It’s getting lost down the list already, had trouble finding it today!
Can any moderator or admin move it or make it sticky for now?
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It’s getting lost down the list already, had trouble finding it today!
Can any moderator or admin move it or make it sticky for now?
Its sticky for now.
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I am having the problem of a large object disappearing when the centre is not in view.
Normally this was cured by using FL Model Tool, but that does not work in this case.
When I made a sur for it, the problem stopped.
I do not want to have a sur for this object.
Does anyone know what is causing this, or how it can be cured?
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CzW, Mirkha…
As far as options go, select “Back To Front”, collision must be “Shrink Wrapped” and scale down set to “1”, mass on 100.
Once all good, click on OK; you will have a file bsl_S06.sur.
Doing this will bridge the gaps and hollows in the sur, as part of the shrink-wrap export. So all sur parts will be made convex automatically by the exporter.
So when you make a shape with a dock cut into it for example, I don’t understand how a ship will pass through as yet. I haven’t made one to check. Any comments please?
Also…
When we change the name of the root part in the cmp, we are replacing the ship root with the 1st sphere. Why exactly?
This will leave us one group short, remember we only made x-1 spheres, because the first is the root - i.e. the ship.
Could it be that this method is working precisely because we have removed the root group?
Thanks.
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To cure the disappearing act, simply set the type to one of the stellar object types (planets, moons) and it should clear up the problem.
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CzW, Mirkha…
As far as options go, select “Back To Front”, collision must be “Shrink Wrapped” and scale down set to “1”, mass on 100.
Once all good, click on OK; you will have a file bsl_S06.sur.
Doing this will bridge the gaps and hollows in the sur, as part of the shrink-wrap export. So all sur parts will be made convex automatically by the exporter.
So when you make a shape with a dock cut into it for example, I don’t understand how a ship will pass through as yet. I haven’t made one to check. Any comments please?i don’t know exactly how the shrink-wrap works but i have made two dock with the bolean tool.
one example :
and the two work perfectly.Also…
When we change the name of the root part in the cmp, we are replacing the ship root with the 1st sphere. Why exactly?
This will leave us one group short, remember we only made x-1 spheres, because the first is the root - i.e. the ship.
Could it be that this method is working precisely because we have removed the root group?Thanks.
in fact with the v3 exporter, to make your cmp functional you don’t have to rename the first group.
but you have noticed that i don’t rename the cmp groups in milkshape before the export.
so i have one group called : Group1.
and you know each part of a cmp must have a unique name.
if not freelancer doesn’t considere them and doesn’t show the object ingameand no, the first group is not a sphere. the firt group is the entire ship.
here you see that the first sphere is not made in milkshape
and here you see that the first group is the reunification of all cmp groups.
i hope that’s help you
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Right, got it.
Well since you are naming the root group I think it’s not changing anything, is it? As long as the name of the 1st root group (in this case it should still be the ship or station groups) is in the root’s file name then all will be ok.
Can you post up the cmp’s UTF tree so we can see the group names please? That will clarify it.
And a screenshot of the model and its sur in HardCMP will show that it is convex or not, if you can try to angle it so we can see the sur wireframe.
Thanks.
All the best.
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Right, got it.
Well since you are naming the root group I think it’s not changing anything, is it? As long as the name of the 1st root group (in this case it should still be the ship or station groups) is in the root’s file name then all will be ok.
Can you post up the cmp’s UTF tree so we can see the group names please? That will clarify it.
And a screenshot of the model and its sur in HardCMP will show that it is convex or not, if you can try to angle it so we can see the sur wireframe.
Thanks.
All the best.
by default when you import the cmp/3ds in milkshape, just before add the spheres, milkshape juste give Group1, Group2, Group3 ect … for the ship’s groups names.
so when you export, the exporter give to your cmp the “Group1_lod1.3db” name for the first group.
just like this.
not a problem, the cmp/sur are functional
but when you make another ships/bases, milkshape will do the same thing and give your cmp the “Group1_lod1.3db” name for the first group.
and when you put the two ships/bases in game you cannot see them because for freelancer two object have the same group name.and this model have a docking part.
the root is in one part and it present a concavity
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Thanks Mirkha. Yep the group rename is clear.
Well it looks like the cavity in the sur is most definitely there!
It’s very strange the exporter would do that in Shrink-Wrap, it’s supposed to bridge the vertices. Or did you export it with shield bubble and then strip off the shield bubble?
Unless it knows about Boolean?? The author of the exporter plugin has not been around to ask him, it would have clarified so many sur questions.
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no bubble
never !! bubbles is the dark side !!!
hum … sorry i don’t have take my pills ;Dmost seriously, only Shrink-Wrap.
and as you see on the video the boolean tools cut the face and make some others faces not to leave an open mesh.
i don’t know how but i just see it in 3dsmax.the question is not that if the author of the exporter is here, but is anyone else can make an exporter pack for 3DSMAX ?
because all the game was made with 3DSMAX … and obviously it is possible … just need a C++ programmer with some free time … and a lot of bravery ;D -
Hi all, great tutorial, thx to everyone who participated.
I’m having a small problem
I’ve made a base, it’s a Star Trek Starbase
Not yet complete and haven’t started skinning yet.
It’s made up of multiple surs and groups. I used the tutorial and it works a treat except for a couple of issues that I’m hoping someone may be to able advise me on.
The first is the solar radius. The distance to the object appears as 0K even when I’m still 2k away. I’ve played around with the radius in sur splice and it does reduce this range but I have to make so small 50 that the object is no longer selectable unless you are on top of it. The model is about 4000 high and 2000 in diameter at it’s largest point but if I use these values the it says 0 when I’m at the other side of the system, well almost, slight exageration.
Another issus is the sur for the top half of the main dome. I did this in 2 halves, the bottom and the top. The bottom works fine and the top works from the outside, including the boolean holes, but from the inside it seems to be a bit hit and miss, sometimes it works and sometimes i can pass through it.
I can only imagine that it is due to the complexity of the shape having internal and external detection as well as the docking holes.I used the ghost bubbles for all the parts.
Finally the sun’s glare shines through the object and I noticed this was mentioned earlier but i only used Standard Primitives and not Splines.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated?
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radius is managed in the lodrange of the object in the solararch.ini
and maybe you need to hack you freelancer.exefor great objet in our mod (2600 meters) i use lodranger = 40000 at least
and for the sun/bolean.
i have made a lot of tests the last week
and when i said a lot of tests … it’s an euphemism …
even when I make the boxes only with milkshape it’s still the same. only the root part is not transparent to the sun …
it’s just a freelancer limitation.no difference between splines and shapes for the sun : a good new and a bad one in the same time.
a good because you can do better sur and more easily with splines.
a bad one because we need to fix the problem
i have already a method.
the only problem is the flare.I have not yet tested with the file stararch.ini and particulary this settings :
[Texture] file = fx\sun.txm tex_shape = sunglow tex_shape = glow2 tex_shape = glow2_ring tex_shape = ice_halo tex_shape = lenscircle tex_shape = lenscircle2 tex_shape = hexagon tex_shape = lensglow1 tex_shape = LensGlowSpike tex_shape = stripe_narrow tex_shape = stripe_flare tex_shape = suncirclebut i have find another way.
you can add a particular field to your system.just add a noflare.ini in the data\solar\asteroids folder
in this ini you need that :[Band] render_parts = 6 shape = asteroid_belt_04 height = 5000 offset_dist = 3000 fade = 1.000000, 1.350000, 15, 17 texture_aspect = 1.000000 color_shift = 1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000 vert_increase = 2 ambient_intensity = 1.000000 [AsteroidBillboards] count = 400 start_dist = 1000 fade_dist_percent = 0.350000 shape = mine_rock_tri color_shift = 0.800000, 0.800000, 0.800000 ambient_intensity = 1.000000 size = 60, 120and in your system ini file you must add this :
[Asteroids] file = solar\asteroids\noflare.ini zone = Zone_noflare [Zone] nickname = Zone_noflare pos = 0, 0, 0 rotate = 0, 0, 0 shape = ELLIPSOID size = 1000000, 1000000, 1000000 property_flags = 0 visit = 0 damage = 0 spacedust = 0 spacedust_maxparticles = 0 interference = 0.000000 sort = 20and that fix the sun who pass throught the model …
i give you news as soon as possible for the stararch.ini ( i hope that’s work this way because it will be easier )and for the boolean ^^
the method work good and i have made other tests
but you’re right, from outside you hit the box and from the inside not.
so 2 solutions :add simple surface around the hole
or use the spline to draw the contours of the object, including hole
i will make a video today to show you -
Thx Mirkha
This maybe bad practice but I use
Lod = 0, 999999 for all modelsSo the only downside to using Splines instead of Standard Primitives is the solar flare, but the surface hit detection works better.
