Jefferson's 3D Modeling Tips for Freelancer
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You make MS3D sound worse than it is.
Effectively most 3d models in FL mods were exported using MS and most of them work flawlessly (you just have to know what you are doing).
Its also free to use for a limited time and not everyone is student to make use of autodesk education stuff.I of course wouldnt recommend using MS for modeling since its way too complicated but its good enough for exporting working FL models.
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Milkshape really have many problems. For example - Defender’s cockpit have visual bugs after export. But Milkshape is not terrible. It’s simple tool for simple things. And nothing more.
One modeller created in SketchUp new models for me. That models totally crashing after any change in MilkShape - in this case you can’t use Milkshape. Milkshape don’t become bad after that - this is just more than it allowing to do.HardCMP
HardCMP is more useful for editing hardpoints instead of new UTF.
Ok, about new tools.
UTF - in last releases was changed renderer of models. I not seeing color of materials anymore. Result - I don’t using latest version of UTF.
FL Mod Studo - changed controls of camera. Result - I don’t using latest version of FL Mod Studio.much better
May be, but not everywhere.
the old UTF Editor
Simple example.
I want to add and rename some nodes to pilot voices. In new UTF it required more than 5 seconds for every new node. In OLD - it hasn’t any lag.Every tools useful in own case. Old and outdated too.
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sketchup models work pretty fine with milkshape if you use the right obj exporter. There is a free one which does the job pretty well (i currently can not remember the name and would need to search for it since I got a new PC just a few weeks ago).
Some other obj exporters that I have tried before export way too many double vertices. That needs to cleaned before exporting stuff with milkshape (lithunwrap might do the job here).I use many old tools since I know them from the very beginning of FL modding and got used to them. Next to that are many new tools “too automated” and dont allow me to see and edit specific details that I personally consider important.
That does not mean that I dont use new tools aswell.
FLdev is great… much better than fiddling wiht reshacker.
FL Mod Studio also has its use eventhough I still write the code of the systems by hand (windows editor) since it allows me more control over specific settings. FL Mod Studio however is pretty nice if you want to check how stuff looks like without constantly launching the game.New and old tools have their justification.
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HardCMP is more useful for editing hardpoints instead of new UTF.
Ok, about new tools.
UTF - in last releases was changed renderer of models. I not seeing color of materials anymore. Result - I don’t using latest version of UTF.
FL Mod Studo - changed controls of camera. Result - I don’t using latest version of FL Mod Studio.You do realize those tools have threads on this very site and that, at least for UTF Ed, I actively monitor it for bug reports? Instead of stupidly dropping a tool because of a singular feature breaking (which absolutely is a bug, but people don’t tell me about them), why didn’t you write something in that thread?
I’ve added virtually every single feature HardCMP had and then another layer on top just for good measure, so why the hell are you still using HardCMP anyway?
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Here’s an idea from the pro’s and it’s probably buried in the threads somewhere. OUTLINE THE MODELING PROCESS.
EG; From 3D model, hardpoint addition, texturing, export to cmp-mat, scripting, testing. And what software was used. (And if that software is available on what site ).
To the pros this is called “The Pipeline” and raging arguments result in art/design departments over the most efficient pipeline. Which usually get settled by the boss saying “Do it my way”.
If some software is buggy/outdated/clunky,etc then what do you think is better and why?
If you think you have a pipeline nailed; What is it?
Chances are good someone else is doing it better.There might be a handful of people who can do everything for a good Freelancer mod. (I’d like to meet one, but their probably suffering from OCD.) And that’s why were on the Specialty Modding thread because we model.
Things have changed drastically since about all we had in 2004 was UTF and Hex editors. In this Friendly Fire out there is dead right. Still, of all the parts needed for a good mod, there’s nothing I’ve found that beats putting your own pretty ship into Freelancer and taking it for a spin around Sirius.
So folks, what do you use and how do you use it? Huh?
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If you’re into editing xml I’m using UltaEdit but it’s pricey.
I’m primarily modeling in Cinema 4D, but export .obj into
3d Max 2010 and then do my hardpoints there and export to .cmp and .mat files. Textures I do in Photoshop. On the threads someone was experimenting with getting normals mapping into the game. That would be a MAJOR leap if you could get DXT5 .dds maps into the game!
I experimented modeling in Z-Brush but the results were lost bringing the polygon counts to something within reason. As for textures I learned the ships look better using the original Freelancer Textures as templates and giving them a total redo.I just got back into Freelancer after a 7 or 8 year hiatus making “mods” they called “Downloaded Content” and whatever I did belonged to them. At least here Steam and the @$!* IPCC hasn’t killed real freelancers like us.
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For a good example of a modeling pipeline
Look for the Fast Ships Anyone thread and skip the links until post 10 and download “FIR’s Guide 2 fast + dirty model conversion.”Forget most of his posted links to software. Most is on the download pages here with newer versions, but it’s the process, not the tools to look out for. Since the bottom line is putting a model into the game (though I prefer to use MY models). Admittedly I’m weak on things like 3db icons, SUR files and cockpits, but I’m learning and now have the time and with this site, access to tutorials. And FIR’s tutorial pointed out a few things to me.
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Hey here’s the link to grab UVMapper. It’s a tiny single .exe. (Unpacked it’s only 576kb for the Win version) available in Window, Mac and Linux flavors. Creates maps in any flavor .bmp format so loading then into any graphics program is easy. Creating a tutorial .pdf for it.
UVMapper at http:\www.uvmapper.com
IT’S FREE!
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Under the heading of FREELANCER; OUTSIDE THE ENGINE! (Or what you can do with a render farm in your closet)
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Okay for fellow 3D geeks like me:
Single pass render to .tif @ rtime of 24min 58 secs
Global illumination with 4 levels of diffuse depth.
AA fixed as 16x16 min & max (sync)
Single area light with all excluded except ship model and figure. Raytraced shadows attenuated to 60% with cast of S 12% V 8% at cast of R 21 G 19 B 19.
Starsphere pulled from starsphere_bw04_stars.cmp along with associated stars_large01.tga and stars.tga
Nebula and sun volumetric effects (0 geometry).
Stars set to IBL through associated materials in luminance channel with 200% value.
No camera effects. -
Decided my old avatar was too cluttered and didn’t read very well. I’m working in a tutorial on UV mapping in pdf format with over 80 pics. Doing it like the tutorials in the 3D trades and putting the mapper software, model for mapping and textures all into the zip. (Except the image software, if they need that they can grab Gimp or something). The final image turned out so well I cropped it into the new avatar.
Here’ the original;
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Okay among my irons in the fire I’m giving an entire base a redo. Planet Toledo, the Order base no less. I’ve got the new smoother geometry finished and have added landing pads and am going to render out near seamless textures for her. However I’m stuck at that pesky fx of the landing forcefield under the ship. The fx showroom thread’s last post was from Helloween a year ago, but I posted my appeal anyway and am crossing my fingers.
Now I’ve got some pretty potent terrain generators. (Vue, Bryce, even a few proprietary ones from past gigs). So the terrain mesh looks much better though the polygon counts aren’t that much higher. It’s going to need a total re-texturing to get rid of the tile effects, but that’s not that much trouble. I have the software that does that.
Heres the shots of the half completed Toledo Order base, a test ship of mine (the Asteroid) with a lame placeholder I made instead of the forcefield and a workfile shot of the terrain to show the new polygon mesh and that it’s not just a increasing them with a nurbs smoothing.
EDIT: given the ale, it’s 2 break out files and told until their finished with software their zip I can do with any of it. Still thanks.
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I just broke the news about what .dds DXT5 implementation I was referring to in prior posts on the OpenGL thread. When I got trolled about it I shut down and figured these people must think DXT5 begins and ends with interpolated alpha. At one time or other I’ve worked professionally with every flavor of .dds and that was years before Freelancer shipped. Well now there’s one thing I and everyone else can use the NORMALS MAP implementation to do and that render NEW and REDONE textures in and resolution you want from vanilla 512 x 512 up to whatever though I’d suggest not going over 2048 x 2048. That’s textures rendered directly to .dds files or .tga files right from the 3D software.
A word of warning here. You REALLY have to know what you are doing or you’re going to crash Photoshop’s NVidia Normals map filter. There’s tricks to doing right. Trick I learned from the NIF Group, tricks I learned that you’ve seen me use in video games somewhere I flat guarantee you. That’s not a boast that’s just the facts.
So if you can take a single square plane and do the below with it using just the renderer welcome to the big leagues:
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I’ve been trying to get hold of Crabtree to tell him I’m back and ask some technical questions and since he was good with his critiques on earliest models offer WTS World first crack at some ship models I’ve done. Website is dead. All the WTS sites posted in their latest mods are dead. Crabtree if you’re out there here’s a blast from the past that’s for the reason I sent it out when were out of contact because your server went FUBAR:
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I’m going to repeat this one last time, very slowly, so you hopefully get it.
You’re wrong. You’re acting like file formats are fucking magic when they’re just that: file formats. DXT5_NM is a format used for storing normal maps. It’s a hacked together format (you want to use 3Dc/BC5 for best results) since it just reuses the green and alpha channels of an RGBA texture, but it works.
BUT THAT DOESN’T MAKE THE GAME MAGICALLY USE IT.
Schmack’s renderer can make use of the normal map. Freeworlds’ renderer can too. But that’s because we both explicitly implemented normal mapping support, by ourselves, without Freelancer magically doing it for us.
Freelancer, on its own, cannot use normal maps. It never will be able to. It doesn’t even support specular highlights for fuck’s sake. I don’t care what file format you shit out, none of them is going to do it. A file format just carries data, you can’t make it do something.
Please stop embarrassing yourself by repeating this ad nauseam.
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Mia Culpa. Mia Maxima Culpa. Sixth time I’ve replied to find out the submit button’s vanished. The upshot is you’re right. There’s more opinions than a dog has fleas and from experience it’s always who gets there first that wins. So I promise from hereon out to never mention any .dds schema inside Freelancer’s engine. Let the best coder win. Now Schmack was taking resizing and othet questions that there is only one sure answer to. There’s a saying around these parts that you can’t polish a turd. And Freelancer’s old textures are firmly in that category. The answer to resize is NOT in the 2D graphics it’s in the 3D software renderer. Otherwise on an upscale your dragging the trash and aliasing with you. Now that means redoing the textures. I’ve explained that to him and will show him with the right techniques that’s not that hard or time consuming and I really want to see what he can do with the tools besides GIMP and Blender because he’s got talent. I’d like to see what he can do not trying to paint the Mona Lisa with a paint roller.
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Oh an while I’m being contrite FF you are so right about the green and alpha channel. No make that Especially that alpha channel. That is if to let most filters in the creation of them handle it. Don’t they screw it up in a flat heartbeat. That’s why I create the correct data and add it to the alpha channel myself. Darn thing ONLY responds correctly to a the right set of values. As for the green channel that’s again a matter of garbage in - garbage out and again works only with the right set of values. Though when you know… Well the results speak for themselves. Plus packages like C4D do a superb job with them it (at least on my builds) doesn’t use .dds files. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t accept photoshop format with the same NM data. Worked real well.
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Out of Engine:
New Toledo Order Base in volumetric rederer:
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… and that one looks better than the original?
Dont get me wrong here.
You might have experience with modeling and textures dating back even before FL was a thing (at least thats what Ive read multiple times today), but you also should keep in mind that we are no dumbasses either.
Some of us have been active FL modders from day one. Thats ~15 years of experience in which we have tried to improve the game as much as possible (and I guess that we did a very good job so far).
Your enthusiasm definitely is refreshing but at times you sound like the guy that wants to teach us how to finally do it right.
You are very focused on the DTX5 NM stuff, probably because you see a benefit in it. Great.
We (or better I -> because I can not speak for the others) see the situation a bit different.
1. the normal map stuff is currently not supported by FL
2. even with the wrappers I do not know how they will deal with the data… maybe the input of the NM data is done in a completely different way -> since the wrapper has not been release yet I dont have such specific information
3. DTX5 (with NM or without) is not always the best way to use textures in FL. By my 15 years of experience with FL I am very sure that DTX1 or DTX3 have some advantages over DTX5. Sometimes I would even go with uncompressed TGA. In my eyes there is no ultimate DTX5 solution.
4. File sizes matter (especially on mod which already have multiple GB of data).
5. compression artifacts or not… in most cases the average user wouldnt even notice that. This whole upscaling stuff in my eyes wont significantly improve the quality (at least not in a way the players would notice).
6. there are other ways to improve the look of textures in FL way beyond what upscaling could do. (if these ways even work on the upcoming wrapper is unknown to me).What I am trying to tell you is that we also have alot of experience, expecially with FL and that there is no “best” solution.
Modding FL requires to make decisions which solution works best in specific situations.I say that because I am not just a modeler or a guy that knows how to work with textures… I am an allrounder who has done pretty much everything from creating tools over modeling, texturing and scripting.
FL modding is alot more complex than you might think. The impact of texture on the game also is more diverse than you currently seem to have in mind.At this point I would simply claim that your DTX5NM has no positive impact on vanilla FL and 99% of its mods simply for the fact that the NM data isnt even used by FL.
Yes, you can add that data if you want. You can also put in a jpg or a gif into the utf containers. That however does not mean FL can read that data.
This might change with the new wrapper… or it might not change.
So far I havent read anything about how NM data will be read by the wrapper. Maybe you have information we others dont have… dunno.
I also have no information if that wrapper has any side effects.
When Freeworlds was released it certainly looked good for that Star Wars environment but it also changed how FL specific graphics worked… up to the point where some FL related settings were no longer possible.
The new wrapper might be different… but i dont really know about that yet.
There are way too many questionmarks for me to predict how stuff will work.
