/v/lancer strikes again?

Why485 wrote:

I have to say, this is by far the most fun I’ve had on a Starport thread in awhile.

I think people really underestimate the throw that /v/ has. While they tend to work in “flavors of the month,” they can collectively produce some pretty surprising and quality things. (Pic semi-related) Honestly, you bring up Freelancer in one thread and it’s not uncommon to see a wave of “brb reinstallan,” and, “What mods are good?” There are a lot of Freelancer fans that could easily come back from that site, and the last time I checked, the FL community wasn’t getting any bigger.

/V/s problem is really a totally understandable problem. I’m not going to lie, the motivation for me doing a lot of things in FL modding revolves around “I can do a better job than that.” Most people stop at just pointing out problems, but these guys actually did something about it. While I can’t officially condone their behavior in relation the “real” FL community, you can’t ignore that they are not so different from us. They also are a rather size-able community as well. One that if their numbers were added to ours, I really would have nothing to complain about considering the dwindling numbers that FL has.

Yes, I am aware I’m defending a subset of 4chan. I love watching you all get so riled up over something that doesn’t really matter that much. Sue me.

On a side note, I said this before in the last /v/lancer thread and I’ll say it again. Everything I make/mod in Freelancer I do not hold to myself. I think it is rather selfish for anyone to even think about holding modding any information to themselves. That said, should /v/ ever like to use any of the features or effects I’ve created for FL in general, Itano Circus, and my contributions to 88 Flak (The Liberty Gunboat for example.) feel free.

(Models are a somewhat different story, but they have permissions from the modelers themselves. Or so I’ve heard.)

The only nuance I’d make, Why, is that this is all a question of attitude. Many modders will gladly share if asked politely and in a manner that seems interested in not just getting the end material, but improving upon it and working around and with it. However, they won’t react the same if the guy just picks the stuff directly without saying as much as “thank you”.

I’m very thankful that you share your things with no strings attached, but it is just as acceptable for someone to wish to keep a certain level of ownership on their things. Exclusivity can truly help a server in certain occasions and if you stop immediately thinking about selfishness, you’ll also notice that if the modder has a thriving community, he’ll pour more hours into his work which will benefit the entire community. If, however, his ideas, concepts and work are ripped from him against his will, he might just say fuck it and we’ve just lost an active and productive member of the community.

It’s really mostly just that. Modellers will happily give you permission, coders will even sometimes lend a hand, but only if asked in the good way. Antagonize them and what you get is the situation we have here. What if someone doesn’t want to give out his work? Two options: make it yourself and do it better, thus both furthering the community and getting what you want, or just look around, you’re pretty sure to find something similar if not identical.

The only nuance I’d make, Why, is that this is all a question of attitude.

Implying we started it

I’m very thankful that you share your things with no strings attached, but it is just as acceptable for someone to wish to keep a certain level of ownership on their things.

Implying we don’t give you credit

Exclusivity can truly help a server in certain occasions and if you stop immediately thinking about selfishness, you’ll also notice that if the modder has a thriving community, he’ll pour more hours into his work which will benefit the entire community. If, however, his ideas, concepts and work are ripped from him against his will, he might just say #$%% it and we’ve just lost an active and productive member of the community.

Implying loosing members isn’t the only thing you’re actively concerned about
Implying any of your members would ever actually go to /v/lancer
Well that’s only partially true, we have quite a few people who quit Discovery, but I digress.

Also, wait, /v/ made katawa shoujo? I honestly would’ve used LURK as an example for stuff we’ve done…

Ah, I forgot that arguing with you is just about useless. Twisting words is your speciality

Ah, I forgot that arguing with you is just about useless. Twisting words is your speciality

Implying I

Oh screw it, seems you can’t understand that, so I’ll put it into words you can undestand.

We’ve given you credit, as stated multiple times.

We weren’t the ones who cried OMG THIEF KILL.

None of your active players would ever go to /v/lancer, because they hate us, and given from what I’ve seen, you care more about players than anything else.

Never said you didn’t credit, but you didn’t bother with the author’s opinion: positive or negative, you took what you wanted. This is what I and many others have a gripe with and it’s well within a logical response to be a little pissed about it and to say so on our own forums. Did we go to /v/ to whine about it? No. You guys came in here to advertise your mod for reasons that I cannot find, since you explicitly say “None of your active players would ever go to /v/lancer”.

And of course I care more about players than anything else. What else should I be caring about? A community without anyone in it isn’t a community.

“None of your active players would ever go to /v/lancer”.

Talking about SWWT, not the entire FL Community,

Also I believe my predecessors actually asked for some of your materials and even help in the past, and you blew them off. I also believe you don’t actually ever offer any of your things to anyone, even when it wouldn’t affect you at all.

Also if you again, had been nicer, we might have been as well
We might still willing to negotiate some stuff, at least some of us.
Bearclaws probably wouldn’t.

FF my friend… It ain’t worth it, they live to troll… based on that fact, reason holds no meaning here… we are all going in circles (again).

Try & twist that… ye twit

#76 Then nobody needs, why do the same?
#77 You misinterpret the meaning of words spoken by Bas
Сan not normally object? Say, “I can not argue”.

FF my friend… It ain’t worth it, they live to troll… based on that fact, reason holds no meaning here… we are all going in circles (again). Try & twist that… ye twit

Implying I’m trolling
Implying you can just dismiss anything you don’t understand or like as trolling.

I’m beginning to dislike you.

Good when were on the same page…

(sticks fingers in ears) la,la,la,la,la,la, Ain’t listening,la,la,la,la,la…

Why485 wrote:

I think people really underestimate the throw that /v/ has. While they tend to work in “flavors of the month,” they can collectively produce some pretty surprising and quality things. (Pic semi-related) Honestly, you bring up Freelancer in one thread and it’s not uncommon to see a wave of “brb reinstallan,” and, “What mods are good?” There are a lot of Freelancer fans that could easily come back from that site, and the last time I checked, the FL community wasn’t getting any bigger.

/V/s problem is really a totally understandable problem. I’m not going to lie, the motivation for me doing a lot of things in FL modding revolves around “I can do a better job than that.” Most people stop at just pointing out problems, but these guys actually did something about it. While I can’t officially condone their behavior in relation the “real” FL community, you can’t ignore that they are not so different from us. They also are a rather size-able community as well. One that if their numbers were added to ours, I really would have nothing to complain about considering the dwindling numbers that FL has.

Yes, I am aware I’m defending a subset of 4chan. I love watching you all get so riled up over something that doesn’t really matter that much. Sue me.

On a side note, I said this before in the last /v/lancer thread and I’ll say it again. Everything I make/mod in Freelancer I do not hold to myself. I think it is rather selfish for anyone to even think about holding modding any information to themselves. That said, should /v/ ever like to use any of the features or effects I’ve created for FL in general, Itano Circus, and my contributions to 88 Flak (The Liberty Gunboat for example.) feel free.

(Models are a somewhat different story, but they have permissions from the modelers themselves. Or so I’ve heard.)

I’d just like to state that you seem to be the most level-headed and understanding person here, and that you are a true bro. Also, I have a question for you - Did you ever get that Colony Ship into the actual game? Because that thing was amazing.

Also, what Pasta said is the truth. We have asked permission, and gotten nothing but attitude and elitism in return. We ARE giving credit to the mods the resources come from, and we’ve said that before.

Whatever happened to sharing resources with each other freely for the betterment of the community? Remember when it wasn’t about who had the best server, or whose mod was best? Remember FUN?

I realize this sounds borderline-troll, but I want to get this out there that my troll-mode is deactivated right now, this is a genuine, legitimate question with the intention of initiating a discussion, not stirring up #$%%.

If all the posts were like that…^^ this might have all gone down alot smoother, civility is a precious commodity.

I agree with what you say there about sharing, but if a team says no… for whatever reason… that must be a wish accepted as well, really no use banging heads over who shares what & who don’t.

Citing copyrights… & all that just made it all alot worse… theft is theft… no matter how you try and justify it latter, to yourself & others. if you’ve mended those fences with set modders… then good for you. now a brief example… if i may to outline why were all so uppity at ye /v/

Plasmafire… We all want to tear it apart… see how it was done… use the best bits for Freelancer in general (vanilla overhaul mod for eg) BUT…
we can’t , and as much as that pains alot of us… we accept it… and move along (or code our own version…) thus is “the way”. Now along comes a team that don’t care much for “the way” & proclaim openly they will use whatever… ect… Bound to be some hostility’s there, especially from those that follow “the way” … I for one am a zealot in “the way”… (having spent all last year getting my permissions in order) & why you recently have been in my sights… now back to my little chant…

lalalalalalala…

Pastaspace wrote:
Also, wait, /v/ made katawa shoujo? I honestly would’ve used LURK as an example for stuff we’ve done…

I know it’s not entirely correct, (hence the semi-related) but my point still stands. I personally used it because its just so professional. LURK is a good example however, and it’s actually in the same vein as what /v/lancer is out to accomplish.

weishaupt wrote:
I’d just like to state that you seem to be the most level-headed and understanding person here, and that you are a true bro. Also, I have a question for you - Did you ever get that Colony Ship into the actual game? Because that thing was amazing.

Also, what Pasta said is the truth. We have asked permission, and gotten nothing but attitude and elitism in return. We ARE giving credit to the mods the resources come from, and we’ve said that before.

Whatever happened to sharing resources with each other freely for the betterment of the community? Remember when it wasn’t about who had the best server, or whose mod was best? Remember FUN? .

No I never did try to put it ingame at all. The Liberty Gunboat was an enormous pain to get into the game, and it was my first foray into importing ships. The Colony Ship will likely never make it into the game, at least, not by my hands anyway. I think it’s too many polygons anyway, but Freeworlds has figured ways around that for someone so determined.

I know I’m probably seriously tarnishing my reputation here, but you know what hurts about what he’s saying? He’s right. In my opinion I think its so stuffity to withhold things from the community. It really does happen more often than I want to admit. I’ve seen this “elitism” myself with people not wanting to share some of the things they’ve made. Not to mention the borderline xenophobic relations that each of the servers and mods can sometimes have with each other. (This has gotten a lot better in recent memory though.)

Although I think 3D models are sort of a different story, I really can’t understand why someone would want to withhold code, features, or new graphical gizmos and gadgets. That sort of stuff extends the life of the game greatly. Imagine where we would be if w0dk4, m0tah, adoxa, Lancer Solarus, and all the other great FL modding heroes. withheld the amazing contributions they’ve made in the past couple years.

I did actually look at the code and a few other things (mostly graphical) in Plasmafire, because I was really curious how it was done. I saw how he did it, and decided if I can’t use it directly, I’ll just make something I think is better. (Results may vary.)

Pastaspace wrote:

“None of your active players would ever go to /v/lancer”.

Talking about SWWT, not the entire FL Community,

Also I believe my predecessors actually asked for some of your materials and even help in the past, and you blew them off. I also believe you don’t actually ever offer any of your things to anyone, even when it wouldn’t affect you at all.

Also if you again, had been nicer, we might have been as well
We might still willing to negotiate some stuff, at least some of us.
Bearclaws probably wouldn’t.

Most of the reactions came in after you put up your advertisement video. It’s useless to pass the blame around over and over, we all have a little of it anyways.

I vaguely remember about you asking for materials (I think starspheres?), but we did not want to give these out. I don’t think we require a justification for something like that, we just didn’t want to. The starspheres were made using widely known techniques, so it’s not like we are withholding any secret info here. It just so happens that hours upon hours were put into them and that we’d like to keep these as a highlight of our mod. We have no problem with distributing other parts of our work, though. I personally don’t mind if you use any of my ALEs anywhere so long as credit is given, but starspheres I did not make and I fully respect the decision of those who made them to keep them for the mod.

This should go for anything; if the person does not want you to use something, it’s only respectful to abide to his wishes. See the comment about Plasmafire.

That you accuse me of not offering anything to anyone ever is wrong on so many levels it would be reason enough for me to just stop this right now. I’ve started this site, I’ve rebuilt it twice over, I’ve helped in I don’t even know how many mods… I don’t think I need to prove anything here. Please, I’m letting this discussion go but I’d rather you don’t attack people like that.

EDIT in addition to Why’s edit: I agree on this front, Why. I’d point out that starspheres are much, much closer to models than to techniques. Techniques should be shared as much as possible, but unique art is an entirely different subject. I’ve never said otherwise.

The Colony Ship will likely never make it into the game, at least, not by my hands anyway. I think it’s too many polygons anyway, but Freeworlds has figured ways around that for someone so determined.

You could loan it to us and we could try, we’ve got a few good modellers.
I’d post their stuff, but I don’t think people want a flying F40PH and a testiroid.

Pastaspace wrote:

The Colony Ship will likely never make it into the game, at least, not by my hands anyway. I think it’s too many polygons anyway, but Freeworlds has figured ways around that for someone so determined.

You could loan it to us and we could try, we’ve got a few good modellers.
I’d post their stuff, but I don’t think people want a flying F40PH and a testiroid.

I was just about to suggest exactly the same thing. I have got experience in building 100K+ poly models for freelancer and I would really like to try it on some new material! Yeah, this is side tracking the conversation but hay I am willing to help!

Ozed

Actually, I personally prefer F/OSS as well, as I would release it in the same way if I am a coder. But: If someone wants to protect their work and hold it back for themself it is their goddamn right to do so. You don’t have to like it, I don’t have to like it, but we simple should THEM decide about what they want to do with the stuff THEY created. This isn’t only a question of law but also of justice. It is simple fair.

However, I have to say that I believe that concepts themself shouldn’t be protected (at least not in the same hardlined way) because they are basically more some kind of an idea. And moreover, normally there is far less work behind an idea itself than about it’s implention. Plus I believe into public knowledge, whcih means, that knowledge itself shouldn’t be protected (this is an attitude most of the T SP users share - if you don’t believe me ask yourself why there even tutorials out here).

Another thing I want to mention is that we don’t have to like the idea about using work without the author’s permission, but we should admit that they - at least as it seems - give proper credit (I hope also for the stuff they didn’t got the permission for?). This doesn’t make the stealing part undone, but we all should agree with that it is better that the original authors get credited than if they get not.

Also, another thing why players might be important for modification developening is that they confirm the modders of the server they play at that they are doing something right (otherwise they won’t play at that server, oh?). They are also pushing him further since they constantly ask for more features, improvement of existing features, better performance and, and and…The modder simple gets stuff to do and he knows it will get appreciated by his community. I don’t want to say that this counts for all modders, maybe it even doesn’t count for you, pastaspace, but I believe it does for many of them. How you would feel if your server doesn’t get any players and even you are sick by flying alone in the universe all the time? Ok, maybe you would be fine with that. Maybe you think that now. Maybe your thought might change if you ever get into the situation, maybe not. Maybe your other collogues think different than you, I don’t know. This is just an assumption at all, but I think it might be very likely that you get frustrated then.

What also can’t be ignored - even you shouldn’t be able to reject it - That we all could save much power and energy if you didn’t steal the work. Be it that you got another ressource or you did it by yourself, this way much frustration and anger/aggression could be saved. However, this whole situation could be avoided.