Brrr and wut wit TLR?

w0dk4 wrote:

OPR8R wrote:

guess what… you are right
The FL community is split and no matter how much I try to change that situation some people will never allow me to succeed.
So I stop trying, at least here.

You know, a start would be to allow links and discussions about TSP at TLR.
(Im pretty sure there was a link to TSP in this thread but it could’ve been AzzA who deleted that post)

Next steps would maybe be a link exchange?
We could also include a link to TLR in our community bar when you include a link to TSP in your community bar.

how about you finally post the news that were submitted by huor about my mod 1month ago

how about you stop denying that the work ive done for the freelancer community

how about you stop denying the help requests that were going into your direction (a little reminder on the very first ones: i asked TSP for help to prevent the GLS shut down as we clearly got an offer to keep it running; another request for help happened when the FL communities where hacked and TSP claimed to be save now)

how about finally admitting TSPs role in the split of the FL communitiy (after all it where TSP admins in charge at TLR during that time, it where the TSP admins in charge of the TLR meeting in 2007 and the hacking happened because of exactly those members)

how about admiting how you w0dk4 prevented the development of a GLS replacement prior the GLS shut down by microsoft eventhough it was known that the support time is almost over (a matter that was discussed at the old TLR and still can be read on the archives)

talking about TLR, how about you remove the TLR archives from the net as they are actually TLR property

and finally you were talking about link exchange… ok
1. how about you let us use OUR software as our needs are different
2. how about you grant others the right to use alternative community bars as several server and community admins requested the creation of it
3. if you think you have to deny us and others the above rights then why dont you use the already existing button link exchange from FLC (same rights for everyone)

you want first steps… so do them

oh one final comment:
Azzas policy towards TSP regarding links is not neccessary my policy
but in the end it depends on the treatment we receive from TSP (which btw. doesnt look good right now)

I know some TSPer will be adressing the post above aggresively. Don’t, it won’t help.

yeah me!..

How about… the both of you take a step back of the podium… and let us… the community speak?

OP… yes, you have done alot… and many notice and give respect in kind… but unfortunately that gets dragged down with all this old Bulshit… I understand (as do many) you’ve had better days with Freelancer… but this argument is dragging you both down… and your BOTH better than that… for fracks sake i hope you are… or its time to hang up the admin hat.

TSP and assorted TLR bashers… yes TLR did a bad thing (or 2) at one time… BUT THAT TIME IS NOT NOW!!! … im not going to pull quotes outa my ass and make you feel bad about your opinions, were all entitled to what we feel… What has been done in the past is just that… the past… you drag us all down with this squabble… and i for one am wholly sick of it… from both sides. TLR is back up… live with it…

And one final thing… I saw above nothing more than a simple outstretch of one site to the other… based on the disscusion that has taken place… Don’t cut that hand off OP… and for our sakes… go have a drink and mellow out for a few hours… come back and re-read that post from w0dk4… re-read this… then look at all the old time players and moders voicing the “not agian” opinion… were over this … we just want to make mods and have a good time… this thread… is far from a good or productive time…

Xarian out…

No no no Xarian,
why is the stuff that THEY have done in the past, all the troubles they have caused not important anymore? Obviously I get blamed for every small crap, just like e.g. “creating a community bar” or “having an own opinion about some screenshots” aswell as all my work is getting constantly discredited since I have officially left TSP 1 1/2 years ago when these guys started to discuss how to destroy another FL community on the admins board?

The point is I did something nobody of them was interested to do for years, asking Azza to allow me to build up TLR again in order to bring old can new members to the FL community(and probably bringing the community itself a bit closer together). And just a few days later read this thread here where I get bashed, where TLR gets bashed.
I decided to come to this thread to make an offer so the troubles could end and guess what, I get bashed again. I am even being told which software I have to use on my own site, hello?
Judging by this thread and its replies Starport is in no way willing to stop this crap and actively start to support TLR and the other Communities aligned to it. Therefore the TLR administration and leadership aswell as the benefits from it will be shared by the other remaining FL communities that agreed in this kind of cooperation and by those which will join in later.
This was the intention from day one and this is how it will be. I didnt start this project for my personal interests, but I am also not willing to take the blame while others take the benefits. Coz this is happening for several years meanwhile, and i am sick of it.

TLR is back, it will stay that way and become an active and successful Lancer community again… thats a fact.
I am not MC and I am not Azza, I make things happen like i always did.

I think by now its becoming clear who actually wants the split.

Btw. Huor did never submit a news about Crossfire (or it had an error, who knows), at least if another Starport admin did not delete the news which I highly doubt. Will have to double check with FF on that one.
(maybe you refer to this: http://the-starport.net/freelancer/forum/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3441&forum=19 )

Saving a FL community and rebuilding it, getting other FL communities finally to work together, doing decisions together, working on the same project and supporting those communities is a split now? Coming here, despite the respectles content of this thread to make an offer is a split?
Wow, thats an interesting logic.

OPR8R wrote:
how about you finally post the news that were submitted by huor about my mod 1month ago

how about you stop denying that the work ive done for the freelancer community

how about you stop denying the help requests that were going into your direction (a little reminder on the very first ones: i asked TSP for help to prevent the GLS shut down as we clearly got an offer to keep it running; another request for help happened when the FL communities where hacked and TSP claimed to be save now)

how about finally admitting TSPs role in the split of the FL communitiy (after all it where TSP admins in charge at TLR during that time, it where the TSP admins in charge of the TLR meeting in 2007 and the hacking happened because of exactly those members)

how about admiting how you w0dk4 prevented the development of a GLS replacement prior the GLS shut down by microsoft eventhough it was known that the support time is almost over (a matter that was discussed at the old TLR and still can be read on the archives)

talking about TLR, how about you remove the TLR archives from the net as they are actually TLR property

and finally you were talking about link exchange… ok
1. how about you let us use OUR software as our needs are different
2. how about you grant others the right to use alternative community bars as several server and community admins requested the creation of it
3. if you think you have to deny us and others the above rights then why dont you use the already existing button link exchange from FLC (same rights for everyone)

you want first steps… so do them

oh one final comment:
Azzas policy towards TSP regarding links is not neccessary my policy
but in the end it depends on the treatment we receive from TSP (which btw. doesnt look good right now)

See Wolfie, your timing was off. Now Jesus is required…

A few observations:

1. Op, you will have to directly quote the post where anyone said TLR was best off dead. I’ve re-read the topic, I can’t find it - I must be missing something.

2. Op, please quote where slanderous comments are made attacking you before you appear in this thread.

3. Op, please provide a direct quote of why your input here was required in order to defend TLR, or yourself for that matter.

Now, Op, for each of the above - please do NOT add your own interpretation. Just let the original posts speak for themselves, UN-EDITED or TRUNCATED.

The reason I ask this is simple - I re-read the thread, until you showed up, it was a reasonable discussion. I see on other sites that your claiming TSP says TLR is better off dead. I don’t need to twist words, it’s evident to all that such behaviour is an attempt to stir things up.

Oh - and Op, if that was indeed the server news posted by Huor - then you owe w0dk4 an apology.

And Wolfie, you see, NOW is the time J

OPR8R wrote:
Azzas policy towards TSP regarding links is not neccessary my policy
but in the end it depends on the treatment we receive from TSP (which btw. doesnt look good right now)

Now now Op, is this a thinly veiled threat you are making? I don’t want to twist your words, but your post is actually a threat

1. no it is not the news that i was talking about
2. it was not the only news that were submitted to TSP (the news I submitted january during the mod awards also was not posted and there definitly was no problem with the site)
3. if you consider it a threat that i might consider not to allow links to a site that is constantly bashing us, well then i can not change it… take it as a threat, i take it as a possible policy

OPR8R wrote:
1. no it is not the news that i was talking about
2. it was not the only news that were submitted to TSP (the news I submitted january during the mod awards also was not posted and there definitly was no problem with the site)
3. if you consider it a threat that i might consider not to allow links to a site that is constantly bashing us, well then i can not change it… take it as a threat, i take it as a possible policy

Please provide evidence where in this thread you were bashed - I added some text to the original post:

A few observations:

1. Op, you will have to directly quote the post where anyone said TLR was best off dead. I’ve re-read the topic, I can’t find it - I must be missing something.

2. Op, please quote where slanderous comments are made attacking you before you appear in this thread.

3. Op, please provide a direct quote of why your input here was required in order to defend TLR, or yourself for that matter.

Now, Op, for each of the above - please do NOT add your own interpretation. Just let the original posts speak for themselves, UN-EDITED or TRUNCATED.

The reason I ask this is simple - I re-read the thread, until you showed up, it was a reasonable discussion. I see on other sites that your claiming TSP says TLR is better off dead. I don’t need to twist words, it’s evident to all that such behaviour is an attempt to stir things up.

Honestly, before you posted, this thread was a reasonable and responsible discussion without any attacks perceivable. Since you appear, you’ve dragged it into something moderately disgusting. This has become standard practice in threads you post in. This is the reason I wish you’d leave TSP - but I have no part in TSP, so it’s only my personal wish, so don’t go around telling anyone it is TSP’s policy.

However, feel free to tell them it’s my personal opinion.

OP, you sound rediculous, it’s like a ten year old storming around the room waving his hands in the air, red in the face, steam coming out of his ears, stamping his feet, pointing fingers, blaming everyone else for everything that’s ever happened and proclaiming himself as the saviour of freelancer, the only person who’s ever done anything good for the game and it’s community whilst everyone else has conspired to prevent him doing so. You get yourself in such a huff that someone need only poke you and the red mist descends.

Your anger is obvious to all in your tone alone, never mind the constant ultimatums. w0dk4 attempts to compromise with you and all you can do is throw it back in his face with interest. You know, I love being proved wrong about someone, but everything in my gut right now tells me that you’re just a nasty and spiteful character full of anger at the world you live in.

Take a holiday or something and get some perspective, it’s not normal to carry this much anger around in your pocket, freelancer is just a simple game.

1. I’m sorry OP, but if you seriously think we’d not post news because they’re from CF, you’re oh so wrong. The world doesn’t revolve around a conspiracy against you. I’m actually really pissed off that you can even say such things with a straight face. That’s simply unbelievable. Why have you never PM’ed us about it? So you could say “Well SEE! They’re obviously against us!”?

2. I’ve never denied the work you have done. You’ve been a TLR admin, you’ve stopped it from crumbling, you’ve led or helped many, many mods and you’ve made important contributions to the FL community. This does not change the fact that we are very bothered by the way you act, nor does our perspective change our respect for your achievements.

3. I’m sorry, but I don’t recall any sort of communication of the kind. You’ll have to dig back logs or something. Remember that for a long time, TSP didn’t have any means other than a cheap web hosting. What would you have wanted the site to do?

4. Oh right, so now because MentalChaos was an asshole, it’s the fault of those admins who initially wanted to help, but who decided that attempting to deal with the fool was useless. The split was caused by MentalChaos and later AzzA and Knife, nobody else.

5. And obviously you’ll have the right to keep the archives online?

6a)

w0dk4 said:
Next steps would maybe be a link exchange?
We could also include a link to TLR in our community bar when you include a link to TSP in your community bar.

Emphasis mine. Say what again?

6b) We have had no such request. Most complaints were due to troubles installing the bar - any such bar would’ve had the same issues.

6c) I don’t even understand what that has to do with it. That we use the FLC link exchange or not is our decision, it has nothing to do with “rights” or privileges.

7. As Chips said, that sounds suspiciously like a veiled threat. Do you realize to what level you’re threatening to go down to?

Oh and OP, first steps go both ways. I only see demands as if the entire problem was unilaterally OUR fault.

Puts on responsible hat

I should point out that the way I interpreted that line as a thinly veiled threat to mean that the “policy” Azza had regarding TSP, and not just links. In other words, happy for him to DDOS.

It should be read as “I’ll just forbid links to the Starport like Azza did”, so urge people to consider that. I’m just, well, taking it to imply more than it may appear to do - twisting words, tin foil hat etc

My comments may ask questions of individuals, but in truth they are for the reader to actually think and re-look rather than accept things - a sort of go back, read, and make your own conclusion as to whether that is what actually happened.I personally find most of this thread, and the comments made, highly entertaining (some both ironic and hypocritical in parts!).

I just hope people don’t accept things verbatim - a lot of the comments about issues are misleading and blown out of all proportion. Some talk of “truths”, but remember, everything is down to perspectives, and any “presentation of truth” is always presented in a light that favours the person “revealing” the truth.

The repeated going over’s of the points (some which are now over 3 years old for crying out loud - how pathetic!) read, to any person not directly implicated in them, nothing more than trivial point scoring.

From a spectators point of view, it is smoke and mirrors to try and wrestle control of what some seem to perceive as “community”. The use of age old “but you didn’t listen to me” is grasping at straws to try and get “one-up-man-ship”.

Give it a rest.

1. I dont make such statements out of personal reasons. I make them because it happened this way. “submission done” in my eyes still means “submission done” and not “submission is lost in space” -> excuse this example plz. I have personally posted that news just like i have done it to several other FL sites and moddb. I also have submitted a video, which i have to admit really got posted (after a very long waiting time). Huor has submitted news to TSP that was written by one of our members and as he has told me he also did a forum post just to make sure that nothing gets lost. Knowing huors skills i can clearly say that he knows how to hit a “submit” button.
Writing a PM to you is a matter i clearly tried to avoid after the fine talks we had in the past. That the submitted stuff was either not posted or with massive delay was actually answer enough.
Probably you just have a moderative problem, I dont know.

2. Last time ive been here, that was just a few weeks ago you actually have denied much of the stuff i did. And that is also something that really bothers me aswell as the fact that stating a different opinion always leads to flames here. I am clearly not used to that from other FL communities.

3. i currently dont see the point that point 3 was refering to so ill skip it

4. “The split was caused by MentalChaos and later AzzA and Knife, nobody else.” ok, let me get this straight
the community did split because MC was an asshole? With that statement I originally would be able to live…. if I wouldnt have offered a free hosting package to TLR prior the TLR meeting in november 2007 that would have kept TLR alive and TLR ownership at the old owners… that of course is not matter of problem… matter of problem is that someone (I am not calling names now) has muted me during that meeting and voiced big plans during that meeting. Well that is how MC got in charge. So actually MC is not the only one guilty. I know what ive done wrong, and ive no reason to hide it but i also know how to repair the damage, and that is exactly what i am trying to do.

5. I dont intent to keep the archives online. I intent to re-build TLR with everything that was written from the very first day till now, fully usable. I do what I have offered in 2007 (unfortunatly under the same good conditions). The content of the TLR databases belongs to TLR and to nobody else. (it is this way by law btw.)

6a. admiting a misread
but at the same time i probably should mention that OUR community bar linked to TSP for about a year (the link got a removed when this thread here appeared)

6b. Reminder on the discussion (or whatever you want to call it) at FLC. Exactly there people complained about your bar and the fact that during that time you didnt appear to listen to their complaints. At that time they requested from me to work on a new kind of community bar… so we started the work. Since the SWAT Portal aswell as Lancersreactor are multigaming sites a Freelancer Community bar does not 100% fit our needs. Next to that I personally consider your way of registration and moderation of that bar… lets say… complicated… too restricted… not free enough for communities. But… that probably does not belong into this topic.

6c. I explain what it has to do with it. You or better to say w0dk4 blamed us for using an own own community bar

I think what will mostly encourage any split within the FL community is Swat’s and now TLR’s seperate community network bar.

At the same time you introduce a banner/button exchange fully ignoring that other FL communities already have such a feature? Wouldnt that also split the community if the 2nd community bar does? Btw. did you already know what in fact 3 community bars are in use meanwhile? (just wanted to mention it)
Same rights for everyone, you use your own button exchange so we use our own community bar.

7.

As Chips said, that sounds suspiciously like a veiled threat. Do you realize to what level you’re threatening to go down to?

of course i do
but that clearly depends on if you bring it in connection with this statement

Therefore, my only fear is that those people will side with OP and cause havoc for sites that are in “competition” with TLR and/or Swat.

or if you point it to statements like this

We are not afraid of letting people link to other places and websites.

(btw. none of the both communities -> SWAT and TLR had such a policy active)
I actually thought statements like “I am not MC and I am not Azza” are pretty clear.

Oh and OP, first steps go both ways. I only see demands as if the entire problem was unilaterally OUR fault.

no no no
i came here to make an offer/suggestion
my first post never contained a demand
It clearly was not my duty to come here and inform you about the situation of TLR and make an offer aswell as it never was my duty to make similar offers to other people and FL communities. And while sticking with that it was also not Azzas duty to hand over the site and the domain.
I am not sure if you are actually aware how far I have stepped to make this possible and reach a hand. The response from the begining of this thread (ok ill exclude the first post) was unpleasant. Or in other words (sorry im a german businesman and we really talk this way) “we were kicked in our nuts”.

Think about me what you want but i believe in TLR aswell as i believe in the communities that offered their help.
Honestly i have meanwhile given up achieving something here. Maybe it was a bad idea involving TSP at all.
Just one thing: Have you ever considered that your decisions on behalf of the entire FL community (and you have taken yourself such a rights on some of your decisions) might cause problems to other FL communities? It wouldnt be the worst time to think about such a question.

I leave this thread to you now, dont worry i wont reply or visit back

OPR8R wrote:
At the same time you introduce a banner/button exchange fully ignoring that other FL communities already have such a feature? Wouldnt that also split the community if the 2nd community bar does? Btw. did you already know what in fact 3 community bars are in use meanwhile? (just wanted to mention it)

Op you are too eager to jump without thinking. You may not read this, but others will - your intent on replying in the first place.

Most sites feature a banner/button exchange. It is an opt in procedure - you contact them directly to be included, and in return you advertise them. Both parties are happy for this, it is agreed directly between the two, and opens up a line of communication. w0dka’s post was nothing more than this - it was NOT regarding a new “we host, you display our code and therefore get all the links we add” type solution. It was just the old fashioned link system used everywhere…

So you imply they’re proposing a new system to replace someone else’s - which just simply isn’t true.

Such a system that is now used makes this “automated” in some respect. It is nice, but it actually makes redundant the original reason for banner/button exchanges. The questions are:

1. Do you get to choose whom you are showing? If not, this means sites may be advertising those they may wish not to.

2. Sites only communicate to the central host, and not each other. Sort of defeats the whole point of the traditional banner/button exchange, you don’t contact the individuals.

3. A single site is responsible for the entire operation. What happens if it goes down, or the creator just moves on?

Don’t get me wrong, it may sound like I’m against the idea of the links - I am not, and I do think it is neat the current implementation. However, I also remember getting to know quite a lot of people quite well (in the old modding community) - and a lot of it started with a simple communication about a links button

Right now these all remind me of a targeted Google ads type feeling

Oh, and lastly, to be pedantic…

5. I dont intent to keep the archives online. I intent to re-build TLR with everything that was written from the very first day till now, fully usable. I do what I have offered in 2007 (unfortunatly under the same good conditions). The content of the TLR databases belongs to TLR and to nobody else. (it is this way by law btw.)

If this is true, then is TLR a company? You cannot have a “similar” domain name and claim therefore ownership of data… the world doesn’t work that way.

1. I’m sorry, but a technical issue is a technical issue. You clearly phrased it in a way that implied it was a decision made by the staff. You decided not to PM us. You should not even have brought it up. I’d be more than happy to help anyone with their issues, should the need arise. Yes, even from you. You need to look back at how I proceed and think about how you picture me. I’m not some kind of monster that’ll do everything in its power to cast you in a bad light. I have my opinions as a person, and my duties as an administrator. Many people have said I should’ve banned you a while ago, but that would be my personal opinion clashing with my administrative duty. You have done nothing wrong in here, so you have no reason to get banned and no reason to get singled out. Had you asked for help, I would’ve helped just as I helped every single person who’s asked in the past.

2. Would you care to link to this? You must be misinterpreting my words. I cannot and would not deny facts. You were a TLR admin and helped there, that’s a fact. You built one of the biggest mods around, that’s also a fact. I can dislike the mod for personal reasons (taste, etc.), I can have issues with the site, but you still did those and have been an important member of the community. I don’t think I’ve clearly said that I denied those facts anywhere.

4. I’m not the one who muted you. I was not even aware that you had been given this opportunity. Hence, I don’t see why me, w0dk4, Worfeh, Roo and others should be blamed for what others have done.

5. The problem is that the archive was in an unrecoverable format until Worfeh decyphered it. He has as much of a hand into the data being available as TLR has. He would be within his right to deny you the usage of his reverted copy. Furthermore, as Chips has said, the ownership belongs to the original owners of TLR, not you, not AzzA, not MentalChaos.

6b. Well I’m glad that this was the case. However, that is something you did of your own will. Nobody coerced you into doing it. The FLCN has been designed in a specific way to cover a specific purpose - to link together all the FL sites so that you could always reach any point from any other point at any time. It is important for us that the rules we have put in place be respected, or the very foundational principles of the FLCN would be lost. You can’t ask us to do that.

6c. Like it or not, few sites would display TWO community bars at any given time. It’s just impractical. That was mostly w0dk4’s point: you’d have a portion of the sites only linking back to what the FLCN provides, while another portion would only link back to what your bar does. There would be no clear bridge between both entities, hence, a rift. You’ll also notice that we have in fact added FLC’s links after Soupman came in the thread. The link exchange is a very, very recent thing. You can’t really comment on something until it’s finished, which the exchange is not. Furthermore, for a long time I was against putting it up because it also linked to TLR. Now that you are in charge there, my objection no more applies.

7. I was referring to links, because yes, for a long time TSP links were being censored, edited, redirected, etc. I’ve never implied that SWAT had such a policy, but TLR definitely did.

As for hacking, remember that what w0dk4 is saying is that others would do such things. Not you. Not someone under your command. Others, on your behalf but without your permission. Just like there are idiots who come and slander other mods on their own servers and claim to be hailing from Discovery. It’s something that benefits neither of us, but it’s a very real possibility, especially considering FL’s history.

8. Well I don’t want to sound rude, but your wording and phrasing definitely make your suggestions sound like demands.

I have that same problem … my words in written form often come off as Attitude … i blame my English teacher …

I have always been for the communties to come together … im not saying anyone here or at Swat hasnt been … but this seems to be the ideal moment to make it so … while i did not Support TLR in the recent past due to Actions not controlled by anyone speaking today , i do Support it Now and Get the feeling TSP feels the same way … it only takes a yes to make it happen,

I would suggest and its just my opinion … we start from square one Right now … nothing in the past counts , its a clean Slate for all … What do ya think Op ?

Lets Really Show the Community that we are united in one thing at least , Link bars and Banners mean little compared to actions , And we all want the best for Freelancers and modders Everywhere … So lets Just do it

Im in … How Bout you Guys ?

Apparently AzzA is having another go at Hamburg City and was trying to do it at TSP earlier today. Do you see what w0dk4’s point was about, now, OP? It’s not your fault, but that’s exactly what w0dk4 meant.

Holy Halleluja….

I will shed some light on some of the mentioned things here. I am already in contact with FF about the news thing. I did post a news (as news submissions were pleased to be posted :). Submission ended in a blank page. As myself wasn’t clear if the news submission would ever reach the inbox (to be posted later), I decided to post that thread that was already mentioned. Hence its a technical problem of that site. Just to finish this topic. For me it was OK to have the thread., finally. So its either my fault that i didn’t followed it any further that i was not posted as news, i didn’t even contact any admin here about it - also my fault Now we can quarrel who had which fault. But that leads to nothing, because both sides had their fault in not getting the news posted. Please consider this topic as solved now - its not relevant anyway for the topic of this thread!

Then the community bar thing. There are different versions, the SWATs one the TSP one (don’t know a third one). Basically its the same - namely a linking of other sites, belonging to this community and to offer a linkage between each other. The basic idea is really fantastic! And to get the stone into rolling again. I would consider it a community bar if we could finally act together and eventually get one community bar established that would sever all sites purpose (probably customizable for every site). So don’t lets quarrel about who used what which what restrictions here or there. Doesn’t really matter. Make the name of the bar (COMMUNITY) real. I would be pleased to cooperate with some folks to get this task finished.

And finally - this discussions here serves no other purpose than to reveal comments and arguments that have been raised continuously over the entire history of the lancers communities. We certainly can continue to quarrel again and again - and ahm again about the same problems and issues and probably would never come to a conclusion that suits all sides. For me important would be to somehow unite as a community and leave the arguments about each other in the past. Because actually thats my understanding of community - working together to serve the purpose so all can enjoy their part. Would make Freelancer stronger and we could strengthen eventually the player ship on ours all servers - because no one is really interested in all the pasts #$%%.

Thats just my 2 cents here. If needed i am willed to moderate to between TSP and SWAT and or TLR…

yea, cmon, let’s argument why we did the better job and the others did the worse. let’s discuss about events of the past, appreciation and ignorance, exclusion and all the blah (i have in fact missed the last page, didn’t want to read all that rubbish).
this is what is splitting the community and nothing else!!!
close this frakkin thread and get back to work. this will not result in anything rather than trolling. yes, it might be polite, intellectual and fact-based. it sounds barely like sorta courthouse discussion but in end, it is not more than TROLLING. you just do not use dirty language but your actual intellect.

that does not make it better.
dunno about other community members but me for instance do not care how much you like or dislike each other. for the aims we pursuit it is entirely irrelevant!