FLServer and the future

What the hell Bas? We’re running out of IPv4 addresses. That’s a fact, not some sort of conspiracy theory. Remove the tinfoil hat sometimes

However, that doesn’t necessarily mean IPv4 will disappear altogether. As businesses move their entire network to IPv6, IPv4 will still be available for legacy applications. The vast majority of the Internet will be on IPv6, but you can bet FL isn’t the sole program that doesn’t like IPv6, so there will definitely be virtualization options available when such a thing happens.

@ Bas

You won’t have much choice, none of us will as XP is already discontinued as an operating system and M$ won’t be offering anymore updates to XP from next summer i believe

Gibbon wrote:
@ Bas

You won’t have much choice, none of us will as XP is already discontinued as an operating system and M$ won’t be offering anymore updates to XP from next summer i believe

2 seconds on internet confirms that Operating systems are already IPv6 compatible (wikipedia). If it suddenly meant anything IPv4 didn’t work, I don’t think MS would dare not update XP…

(quote from a source, you can google the source via copy/paste the text into google!)

Microsoft has not taken such a shortsighted approach and has steadily evolved IPv6 support in its Windows platforms since the late 90s as we’ll see in a moment.

Win XP has IPv6 support since SP2 I believe.

i 2nd that. IPv6 is already integrated into M$ XP

LOL, the point is that FL is not IPv6 compatible, not whether or not your OS is compatible…

Wolfie, as you said in the Freelancer Network Protocols thread, we could probably build a server which would run on Linux. And then we’d be able to run FLServer on more than one core, and with multi threading support.
Problem with that is that who has the knowledge, contacts and time to do that?

Unless it gets to a point where IPv4 is not able to be used reliably, it should be OK though.

And who builds a new Freelancer.exe with IPv6 support?

=Alex= wrote:
Wolfie, as you said in the Freelancer Network Protocols thread, we could probably build a server which would run on Linux. And then we’d be able to run FLServer on more than one core, and with multi threading support.
Problem with that is that who has the knowledge, contacts and time to do that?

Unless it gets to a point where IPv4 is not able to be used reliably, it should be OK though.

I’ll take the moon alongside that fine FLServer dish.

Why the hell would you waste time making a DirectX-based, outdated and antiquated game server run on LINUX, of all things!? First, games are for Windows, sorry. Second, if you have the knowledge and time to make such a thing, make a new game and get rid of all the crap that FL is.

Remember people, we’re sticking with FL not because it’s a superb piece of software engineering. We’re sticking with FL because nothing better has come along.

FriendlyFire wrote:
First, games are for Windows, sorry. Second, if you have the knowledge and time to make such a thing, make a new game and get rid of all the crap that FL is.

Making games only run on windows is one of the big oversights made by game developers. It’s stupid to limit something to one platform when you are capable of supporting others as well. I don’t have the knowledge to do it, so I don’t plan to. Telling people to make a new game instead of improving an existing one sort of goes against what I think most mods are trying to achieve.

=Alex= wrote:

FriendlyFire wrote:
First, games are for Windows, sorry. Second, if you have the knowledge and time to make such a thing, make a new game and get rid of all the crap that FL is.

Making games only run on windows is one of the big oversights made by game developers. It’s stupid to limit something to one platform when you are capable of supporting others as well. I don’t have the knowledge to do it, so I don’t plan to. Telling people to make a new game instead of improving an existing one sort of goes against what I think most mods are trying to achieve.

I think the number of gamers on Linux (only, no Windows machine available) is probably tiny, and therefore not worth the cost to have to convert your game for Linux operating system (different OS API, OpenGL maybe - dunno, not looked into it).

Probably doesn’t make business sense (quicker to develop a sequel for windows, than port to fulfil a tiny market).

I think Steam is starting by Steam running on Apple’s OS. Surely Linux isn’t a huge stretch, and having a platform like that to deliver will surely encourage developers to take advantage…i think. sort of.

As Chips said, you seem to have little vision of the economics and involvement of the thing.

It is not easy to develop for multiple platforms. You do realize DirectX doesn’t exist on Linux, right? Developers will never support Wine, so don’t even bring that up. We’re speaking hundreds of man-hours for a target market of ridiculously small proportions, most of which isn’t even interested in games in the first place.

It isn’t an oversight, it’s a logical and obvious choice, provided of course you aren’t a blind fanboi. Look at the big picture, man. It’s crystal clear. Case in point, now that Mac is hype again and is gaining a more significant market share, oh miracle, games are being developed for the platform. How strange, huh?

As for your last line, modding exists because it’s easier to mod than to start over. That much is true. However, what you’re speaking of is harder than to start over! Instead of using modern technologies and developing your own infrastructure, you’re asking people to try to reverse engineer an entire game and engine and then rebuild it from scratch on a different operating system with entirely alien frameworks and structure. Do you even see what that entails? There’s no such thing as a spirit to modding. It’s just the go-to place for people who don’t see themselves as game developers and yet who want to go further than being mere players.

I edited my post to simplify whilst you posted

What FF means is that to put FL onto Linux, you’d have to turn from DirectX to OpenGL for starters. This would require re-writing the code.
Next up, the API for the OS is different. C++ code for Windows won’t run upon Linux. You have to recode it (to an extent, someone like Adoxa would give a MUCH more accurate description).

I wouldn’t know where to begin, let alone how to achieve it Someone like Adoxa can probably give a far more accurate assessment of the difficulties (I don’t know people’s programming knowledge, so others can too )

As for the Server, depends what it actually does, but since it controls the AI and is responsible, it indicates it’d require similar alterations.

I’ve no idea about WINE*, never seen it, let alone used it

*Unless you’re talking a nice Shiraz Cabernet Sauvignon… at which point I am a frequent user

Developers will never support Wine, so don’t even bring that up.

Not 100%ly correctly.

Although it isn’t a game, teamviewer.com released a “linux version” which is infact nothing more than a wine compatible version (as I have read).

Another interesting point is, although it doesn’t nullify the “linux niche market” argument is this article:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Linux-users-contribute-twice-as-much-as-Windows-users

In short, there was some kind of “humble bundle” which included about 6 games (aviable for Mac, Windows & Linux) for what the “buyer” could pay any price he wants (yep, even 0.01 U$D were possible). In the end, the average linux user did “donate” almost as twice as much as the average windows user. This means, that linux users are indeed interested in games and will pay for them, even if they are proprietary. They are even willing to pay more than windows users.

Here is an article from wolfire games why game developers might at least should consider to support all three major plattforms:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2008/12/why-you-should-support-mac-os-x-and-linux/

I don’t say it overwights the value of money which is necessary to create the cross-plattform games, but they are at least things to might think about.

I just love this blog. It comes up with interesting articles and a very different point of view.

@Chips: Wine tries to “translate” the Windows-Code to linux equivalents. It doesn’t work always or with the same performance as with Windows, but it has worked out pretty often good. I personally have played Warcraft III at Wine and after some configuration to get the game running it ran at the same speed as with Windows (I didn’t record frames per second, just my feeling - it might has been running even better than at Windows).

In theory, it might be even easier to work on a re-coded FLServer version which is wine compatible instead of re-writing it to be 100%ly Linux compatible. So, an indirect way might lead to the same goal (I mean, Wine might take off some work for you (for the code it already translates fine).

i belive lance is working on a engine wee might be able to use

Bas wrote:
In the end, the average linux user did “donate” almost as twice as much as the average windows user.

This is superficially interesting…it is interesting, I say superficially because what they are presenting is significantly lacking in information.

For example - I would be interested to know the age demographic for all the people donating, as well as their employment, income and traditional outlay for games.

For example:

If there are many games for your platform you may be more discerning about how much you spend. If there is only 1 game, you may have different concerns - such as giving more (which they state), or simply the knowledge that you don’t have to budget to get the maximum game experiences for your money.

BUT

there is no demographics of the donors - such as their income, their occupation, number of games etc. It may be that Linux users are willing to pay more on average simply because Windows users involves youngsters with little income, or what income they do get, spread across multiple game titles (they have to spend wisely).

However, it is quite a sizeable difference in price. Impressive (but I’m still thinking the linux users are all employed 30-50 yr old computer professionals…such a stereotyped view!)

Bas wrote:

@Chips: Wine tries to “translate” the Windows-Code to linux equivalents. It doesn’t work always or with the same performance as with Windows, but it has worked out pretty often good. I personally have played Warcraft III at Wine and after some configuration to get the game running it ran at the same speed as with Windows (I didn’t record frames per second, just my feeling - it might has been running even better than at Windows).

In theory, it might be even easier to work on a re-coded FLServer version which is wine compatible instead of re-writing it to be 100%ly Linux compatible. So, an indirect way might lead to the same goal (I mean, Wine might take off some work for you (for the code it already translates fine).

That is actually cool, I’ve never looked at it - I know I should be aware of it, but I’ve always ignored it by working on the principle that if I use Linux, it’s to get away from Windows…not then use Windows on Linux

C, I have added something about wine in my last post:
€// LOOOL. You read my edit after I added it to this next posting. That an epic fail for both of us, isn’t it?

Another interesting point is, although it doesn’t nullify the “linux niche market” argument is this article: http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Linux … -as-much-as-Windows-users In short, there was some kind of “humble bundle” which included about 6 games (aviable for Mac, Windows & Linux) for what the “buyer” could pay any price he wants (yep, even 0.01 U$D were possible). In the end, the average linux user did “donate” almost as twice as much as the average windows user. This means, that linux users are indeed interested in games and will pay for them, even if they are proprietary. They are even willing to pay more than windows users. Here is an article from wolfire games why game developers might at least should consider to support all three major plattforms: http://blog.wolfire.com/2008/12/why-y … pport-mac-os-x-and-linux/ I don’t say it overwights the value of money which is necessary to create the cross-plattform games, but they are at least things to might think about. I just love this blog. It comes up with interesting articles and a very different point of view. @Chips: Wine tries to “translate” the Windows-Code to linux equivalents. It doesn’t work always or with the same performance as with Windows, but it has worked out pretty often good. I personally have played Warcraft III at Wine and after some configuration to get the game running it ran at the same speed as with Windows (I didn’t record frames per second, just my feeling - it might has been running even better than at Windows). In theory, it might be even easier to work on a re-coded FLServer version which is wine compatible instead of re-writing it to be 100%ly Linux compatible. So, an indirect way might lead to the same goal (I mean, Wine might take off some work for you (for the code it already translates fine).

Sure, that article is no deep analysis, but it provides at least a tendence.

there is no demographics of the donors - such as their income, their occupation, number of games etc. It may be that Linux users are willing to pay more on average simply because Windows users involves youngsters with little income, or what income they do get,

This is- in my opinion - not such important for the high pets out there. They want to see the money, why people are buying that games on that plattform is less important for them.

spread across multiple game titles (they have to spend wisely).

This might be indeed a point why people are paying more for Linux games, but this could also mean that publishers might should take their chance to be one of the very few developers for this plattform (less concurrence, eh?).

That is actually cool, I’ve never looked at it - I know I should be aware of it, but I’ve always ignored it by working on the principle that if I use Linux, it’s to get away from Windows…not then use Windows on Linux

Can be quit useful if you don’t want to miss a few applications which you loved at Windows, especially games.

For FF, this is an interesting article about openGL:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX
What caught my attention pretty much was the FUD of M$ and the fear that openGL won’t be supported properly at Windows Vista anymore.

I’m sorry but there’s no FUD in the fact that OpenGL is lagging behind. Just that is justification enough for most devs to support DX over OGL.

Also no, you still don’t understand. Wine is a fix at best. A company would never take the legal risk to rest their entire support infrastructure for an operating system on THAT. If you can’t see that, you’re seriously deluding yourself. I like Wine, it’s nice for tinkerers, it’s an excellent stopgap solution, but you cannot hope to ever see a game get released on this officially.

As for the indie package…. Why yes, indie devs do tend to release for more platforms. Indie games also tend to be many orders of magnitude smaller on all levels. It’s much more practical to port a 2D game with simple gameplay than it is to port Mass Effect 2. Again, I feel you are grasping at straws.

The reality is harsh, but you can’t honestly tell me Linux is a suitable gaming platform. Do I like that fact? No. Do I understand it and accept it? Yes.