CMP to SUR Conversion Tests

Mirkha wrote:
Thaddeus i don’t think that irony is a good choice

we don’t say that we are god of milkshape or anything like that
but it’s a fact if you want to use the sur builder with a multi part cmp then you need to modify your cmp
enough vertices, enough groups, you maybe also need to know how to modify the structure of the cmp ect ect

it’s not a problem, now we know that we have to do these modifications
the sur builder is a good tool, not yet totally finished, it’s my opinion

i respect the work of LS and Bullwinkle and all the testers, including startrader
so it’s not necessary to specify that there are people who like this tool

anyone who has already tried one day to make a hitbox like this tool

Wasnt a criticism of you Mirkha.

I agree, I would love a sur tool that built a sur for a multipart cmp with a shield bubble and had expansion for animated parts (partiularly inherently concave docks and animated dock doors) all parts centered at origin with correct offsets applied so that parts can be targeted correctly. Doesnt have to be perfect, the sur for the dagger isnt exactly “tight” afterall. I know it is a big ask, I wouldnt want to code that lot. I just dont want to see this tool abandoned just because someone says that his way of doing something is better, yes the sur exporter and sur_splicer method can produce a sur sometimes after a lot of fiddling, its not the best, the best has yet to be written. If we dont give these guys a chance to write it then it never will.
I’m going to shut up now.

bah you don’t have to shut up

the fact is that each method can be good
it depends on what you need
if you are in a vanilia univers this tool is allready the best for you
personaly i use the sur splicer, great tool, great tutorial from Devastat8r and Sushi and the best for a SW univers

so …

i don’t think that the project is dead and no matter what is said, if someone wants to continue it will continue

the problem i see with the multipart sur generation is as follows.
(note, this is from my experience of making surs for trains)

basically a train is made of the root and 2 additional groups, engine01 and engine02. the root consists of 8 subgroups, each engine consists of 3 subgroups. (you can see that after importing to milkshape)
first of all min-max sort has to be set to “no sort”, both type 1 + 2 skipped one of the engine groups, not really a problem.

now for problem #1:
the builder works through all the subgroups which gives a really bad sur. to fix it i had regroup them into just the 3 groups, eliminating subgroups.
so the solution here would be to actually recognize the group span and consider the subgroups as one object.

next problem #2:
the group offsets in the fix node are calculated into the sur generation but they shouldnt.
the result is that the sur groups have double the offsets of the cmp when viewed in hardcmp.
so the solution would be to subtract fix offsets.

hope you understand as my english sometimes gives me a headache and its already in the morning as well.
i think this is a great tool and if the 2 problems get fixed i consider it perfect as it will then generate good surs for multipart vanilla ships.
so heres my thumbs up and i hope this report helps whoever takes over the project.

edit: forgot to say an option for shield bubble and hardpoints would be needed as well, but i consider that less difficult from my point of view.

Scratches Head

Could someone point me to the part of my post where I belittled BullWinkle & LS’s work, cause I sure as hell can’t find it. It’s the exact opposite, I’m all for the SUR Builder and any other tool that makes it easier to get models into FL.
The problem is that even with a SUR Builder working as ST wants it, the CMP has to have been done right otherwise the SUR wont work, and in my experience that’s the part most fail on, either because they hate using Milkshape (too basic for them), or because they have little or no modelling experience (not knowing how to use the CMP exporter properly doesn’t help either), that is what my post was about.

Eh! the only SURs I’ve ever done with the splicer are the ones I did for Gibbon’s Galactica 2.0 mod, and a couple of starlancer ones I was working on before my last visit to the loony house, haven’t built a SUR since I got out, you never know I might just finish them one day. It’s the Exporter for me, 5 years of practise means that only “shrinkwrapped” SURs fail for me, and only because that part of the exporter is F***ed.

Bejay, Thaddeus…

You are both on the same side.

Bejay is quite right, a lot sometimes needs to be done in Milkshape to regroup the model - but he has had experience with too many single-group models as have I, these are a pain and that is what he is explaining.

Someone else suddenly threw in animation and hardpoints - forget it. That is moving the goalpost and I am against that.

The only things we need fixing is what I have already put in because they are simple to produce and there is clearly NO INTENTION HERE to improve Sur Builder.

I am not being insulting now, I passed that and BW copped the lot.

I will not apologise, because he not only refused to even listen to my input, but decided to deride me three times, and refused on several occasions to consider to complete this project, without explanation.

I am now merely very bloody sad about all this sh&t!

I am hoping that LS will have enough maturity being close to my own age to spend the 3-4 hours that are needed as only he can do it to complete this to the spec that I and others have accepted for the sake of compromise to make it achievable.

So to stand any chance of him rethinking this, let sleeping dogs lie.

LANCER: - my last appeal to you is this one. Think about it and reason, please. Minimum 8 vertices, if less then issue a message that the cmp group SUR will not be generated, and an optional shield bubble 1m around the ship shape. With your knowledge I could do this in the same time I have suggested. I am not boasting, I do have knowledge in other languages and can compare the task indirectly.

Anyone want to throw another punch at me watch out, I advise you don’t do it, I do not care who you are, this is not spam, not trolling, and I am extremely vitreolic right now. Don’t bring my wrath on yourself.

My reason and cause of my anger: This project is the third bloody time it was started from scratch, and the third bloody time it is killled inches away from being good.

So some of you need to grow up - a lot. This is NOT only for me.

Time to learn how to use Milkshape properly, rather than as an import/export tool.

Bugger… you mean i have to actually do some work?? lolz :lol:

Xarian, heaven forbid that you should have to work

I must once again agree with ST, its frustrating being so close to having it done and then it dieing off.

Thanks as always though to those that put in their all.

It’s only work when you don’t enjoy it & I’ve never once not enjoyed it.
Playing with ms3d is fun…

Just wish there were more hours per solar rotation… or i clone myself… then I at least wouldn’t have a problem with sur’s… it’s all about time for me… If a ship is chewing up precious modding time, it get’s put aside or worked on in parts (over a few days/weeks)… a working sur clicky thing would go along way to speed up the last stages of conversion & be one less thing to worry about.

It’s just such a blastedly mind-bending format to grasp… when its not your only worry, Here’s to some agreement and further advancement in this area :pint:

StarTrader wrote:
Someone else suddenly threw in animation and hardpoints - forget it. That is moving the goalpost and I am against that.

whats the problem with animations?
afaik its all in the cmp, the sur just needs a group linked to the cmp group name.
ive had no problems getting baydoors to work with the splicer.
or am i misunderstanding?

Lancer -

Thanks for replying.

No I’m not asking for so much work. I’m trying to help you dump it by accepting less.

This is the third/fourth time I repeat myself:-

I’m only asking for these for the existing version of builder:

1. Issue a message if less than 8 vertices & skip the sur build for that cmp group. So the modder knows which groups he has to rework.

2. Squish a sphere 1m round the ship if the shield bubble option is selected.

I believe you started by squishing spheres round parts? So you have the method already.

+1
the program is allready good
with these two options he will be excellent

on my side the amount of memory used is not so catastrophic
i’m almost sure that all the moders have a good amount of RAM
so don’t waste your time on this, i’m sure you have more interesting to do

Lancer’s not going to do hardpoints RimShot, it’s already been dumped because he has so many other projects on the go.

I’m just trying to get LS to make these small changes and then dump it, so at least we know by messages when a model hasn’t been sur’d instead of having to inspect it closely, and get a shield bubble option for when we want one, on a small ship.

So - LS:

Please read post #552 above, please.

Can we get it this afternoon please?

Pretty please with sugar on the top?

A sweet potato too?

A model Shaguar car?

??

Then I will leave you in peace and go hibernate for the winter.

Read post #552 please!

If you post below this one then please copy this message (Read post #552 please!) into your post so Lancer can find what I want him to read or he will not even read it.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

This topic is getting more and more

So, is the SUR tool redy? Or there isn’t gonna be one?

BTW F!R, this video was really “fascinating”!

Just to shift focus a little, I’ve put up an update to msSURImporter. The center of each surface now has its own group; 3db surs are called S1_Model; and materials are prefixed with “s_”.

Adoxa, thanks for the updated importer.

What’s the purpose of the centres?

To see where they are, since this centre (of gravity) is not necessarily the physical centre of the model.

Thanks, good idea.